Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working

[WiZz]

Hi to all.

In my games I met such situation. I found a beautiful planet in enemy territory and I can't colonizing it. It's normal, when my empire is not at war with owner of this system. But when I declared war I can't still colonize a planet.

I reproduced this situation in the editor few times with the same result.

I also uploaded savefile on your FTP. Filename is Isseun Conformity 2754-03-14.zip

[Fideach]

I would say that is how it is suppose to work. Rather or not you are at war with them, the planet is still with in there territory of control. You have to out there sphere of influence in that area by taking over the enemy colony that gives them control of that area.

[Nedrear]

No war should trigger the lift of all territory restrictions. The devs already confirmed that.

[WiZz]

As for me I don't understand need of this border system entirely. Let's think, how can enemy empire stop my miners and colonizers if opponent doesn't have any military in a system?
In my opinion, border system must work in that way: AI or I can ALWAYS mine, colonize, build a station at the planet in the opponent spheres of influence but with a large diplomatic/reputation penalty. If I/AI attack enemy/my miner or colonizer in my/his own system I/AI get no penalty to my/his reputation. Only relations with attacked empires break down.

[Cauldyth]

You can mine, colonize or build a station at any planet in an opponent sphere of influence, it's just considered an act of war. Thus, once you declare war, you can proceed to do any of those things (once they fix the bug).

[Mysterius]

It's not really considered an act of war. It's just a (potentially huge) relationship hit. Also, you can't colonize at all in the sphere of another empire (afaik).

I like it better this way. The galaxy is much more "territorial" and it adds a lot to the strategic possibilities (for example, colonize a crappy planet only to secure a segment of the galaxy).

[WiZz]

I mean to do this things without declaring war...

[Locarnus]

I concur with WiZz.
Colonizing and building mining stations should be possible within others influence spheres.
Their needs to be a setting, for which empires the ai should not care about influence spheres, or leave for manual colonization/mining.

When the colonial powers in earth history set out to build a mine or a colony in africa, they didnt ask for permission. They just saw that the owners/sphere holders over there could not enforce their spheres against them. Then the original owners had to "attack" the colonizers to take back what was theirs in the first place (of course nearly all of them failed, because the colonizers did this only to those who could not protect their property in the first place).

Thats how it works in reality.
A sphere is a claim, it has little value if you can not support it (eg by force).
Imagine an empire having only 1 colony left, but no military. Its rediculous that you have to take over that colony to access the 20 systems in their "sphere".

[Cauldyth]

It's not really considered an act of war. It's just a (potentially huge) relationship hit. Also, you can't colonize at all in the sphere of another empire (afaik).

That's my point. You can colonize if you declare war (once the bug is fixed). Therefore, you are perfectly able to colonize within another empire's sphere, it's just considered an act of war, and you must declare war in order to proceed. (Again, once the bug is fixed - currently you can't even do it while at war.)

I'm new to the game, but from what I've seen I would be very opposed to allowing colonization within another race's sphere when not at war. Yes, it could come with an extreme relations hit, but it still forces the onus to declare war onto the victim in order to oppose it, when the true act of aggression was by the other party. That's particularly irritating for races whose victory conditions include starting the fewest wars. It's a recipe for them getting walked all over. The aggressor should be the one forced to declare war, not the victim.

[Nedrear]

No, making a colony in enemy territory is STEALING territory. If Israel builds new settlements in Palestine it is a fricking theft of land and that IS more enough reason for war!
 
I don't say anything about mining. Though that is clear theft on state property...

[Locarnus]

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

No, making a colony in enemy territory is STEALING territory. If Israel builds new settlements in Palestine it is a fricking theft of land and that IS more enough reason for war!

I don't say anything about mining. Though that is clear theft on state property...

Yes, I fully concur with this. It is a reason for war, to build colonies in others sphere of influence, but you dont have to declare war to do so. The one whose sphere is invaded has to declare the war, not the aggressor.

After all, the allies declared war on germany in world war 2, not the other way around. And Japan didnt declare war on China. Israel didnt declare war on Palestine. The US not on the Spanish, when they invaded the Philippines, the British and French Empires didnt declare war when they colonized and so on...

[WiZz]

I think examples from Earth political geography are not always useful in Galaxy. Galaxy is a vast, empty place. How do we know where territory of the first empire ends and begins another one? How does empire know that some system is not under its control or not be mining now without monitoring station?
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[HectorOfTroy]

Most of the original players of DW wanted the territory feature because after playing the game since the begining they knew what the game needed.

I guess new players would feel the same eventually if the played the original DW and ROTS.

[Cauldyth]

Well, it's a matter of semantics. Yes, in WW2 the allies were the ones who "declared war" but Germany and Japan are the ones who "started the war" by most people's definitions. If the game could differentiate between those two things, it might be a different story. But as it is, that's probably too subtle for game code to discern. In the game, being the one who "declares war" brings with it some drawbacks. In the real world, the allies didn't suffer any such drawbacks for declaring war, because by most people's interpretation, it was Germany and Japan who "started the war."

[WiZz]

So what? As for me, I played DW very long time. And I don't think that border system is necessary, especially in this form.
In original DW or ROTS I had to hunting for good planets and made colonizers as quick as possible. Now it is enough to appear in good sector. It's not necessary to hurry up. Why? Good planets in your sector can't be colonize by opponents. There is no competition in colonization.

[Nedrear]

They can if at war and the enemy will consider doing that for good planets in a reckless universe.

[WiZz]

Colonization? At war? Near enemy territory? Bad idea, I think.

[elliotg]

Hi all

Appreciate the feedback on this feature. The current implementation operates as designed: you cannot colonize in another empire's territory, even when at war.

However we plan to alter this in the next update to allow colonization in another empire's territory, but only when at war with them.

Thanks
Elliot

[Cauldyth]

Sounds good to me! (I guess it wasn't a bug after all, but is still getting changed.)

[WiZz]

ORIGINAL: elliotg
However we plan to alter this in the next update to allow colonization in another empire's territory, but only when at war with them.

It's very sad for me [:(] Only war?