Phillipine Base Force Units

[ladner]

Guys having lurked on this forum and occassionaly posted, mostly about my own stumbling and bumbling modding. I am now determined to finish a campaign with my modded scenario which puts the Japanese AI on steriods by moving up key aircraft and other benefits like more DDs.

Anyhow on the game that I stopped playing because I had messed up the leader file I noticed I alway had a shortage of aviation support. This time I have managed to evacuate key elements from the Phillipines. I noticed some of the Base Force (BF) units have very large TO&E like 150 aviation support. So to the Allied players out there how much effort do you expand to evacutate these units? I think the 103 and 104 USAAF BF and the 118 USN BF all have large aviation TO&E.

In the past I did not pay much attention to these units, I am hoping now that I will be rewarded for saving these units. Has anyone earned big dividends doing this in PBEM? Also does anyone have a rough idea of how long it will take these unit to fill out their TO&E, some are in bad shape.

[michaelm75au]

Hi
the normal TOE for a USAAF BF is only 30 Aviation Support.
In scenario 15, the BFs mentioned only have the above AV value. Which scenario are you looking at?

Some BFs may start out with more than their normal base TOE, but will only replace upto the normal value.

Some of the WestCoast BFs have special TOE where the AV is much higher.


Michael

[Twotribes]

There is an error when you move those base forces. They claim in TO$E to be 4 times as big after being moved, this has been addressed before by the Matrix knowledables. The answer given is even though the error says the base unit can grow to 4 times its size, it CANT. Check the editor, those numbers are not correct.

It has something to do with the process that allows the AI to grow base forces over TO&E, or so we were told. Some how the moved base force thinks it can grow, when it cant.

30 Aviation support is all it will ever grow to ( and 40 Infantry squads) basicly divide by 4 and your pretty close to the allowed TO&E. Failing that open the editor and write down the size of the unit that makes these baseforces, that is as BIG as they get.

[hbrsvl]

Hi-I assume you're playing either scen. 15 or16. What I do is pull out the base forces at Cebu & Ililo using subs from Manila. I do this because the political point usage for these units is low, at a time(12/8-9 41) when there are few PPs. I also pull out the B-17s & P-40s. Also consider the BF at Batavia. Later into the game I've pulled other Dutch BFs by air into Darwin. Hope this helps. Hugh Browne

[ckk]

True about baseforces. However there are 4 Aviation Rgt equivalents that start the game with at least 100 AV support
1.PAF Manila = 150 av support
2. 1 DAF Batavia = 100
3. 2 DAF Soerbaja = 100
4. MAP Singapore = 150

[Twotribes]

Yes but not sure if they have that as TO&E or are given that at start. If TO&E then if you can save them you can grow them back to that, if not, they will only grow to size allowed before move ( check TO&E before ya move them.).

The exception is the AI, it is allowed to send fragments and pieces of AF support and that support will grow based on Base size. Thats why the AI never has problems with low support for aircraft. Or not enough base forces.

[ckk]

That is the TOE from the start And they do grow back. I have evacuated at one time or another all of them except the Singapore force. They don't cost that much in PP and they are very easily evacuated by submarine if you have enough time. The question is whether or not it's "gamey". The US did evacuate some support assets from PI especially when MacArthur got caught with his pants down. There weren't a lot of planes left to support[:@] And no reinforcements coming. As to the Dutch units I don't know if any were evacuated. So a houserule might be appropriate.[;)]

[niceguy2005]

One thing to remember is that at large airfields one base force will have a large aviation value based on the size of the airfield, not on its TOE. If the base force is moved it should return to the TOE value.

I like to evacuate some of the base forces at Singapore with high aviation support values and also the Dutch aviation support units on Java. The Dutch units are always important to my New Guniea campaign in '43. I also will pull a couple of base forces when from PI when playing the AI, but they take quite a while to reconstruct since they must be evacuated by sub.

I don't find this gamey at all. I only find something gamey when it is physically unrealistic, like refueling carriers at a size one port, or when it is politically unrealistic. One could make an argument that pulling the Dutch Aviation Units is politically unrealistic, but everything else seems on the level to me.

[Feinder]

Just be advised that the Dutch BF units, are also the engineers that attempt to destroy the oil/resources when the base falls.

By all means, evac DAFAv1 and DAFAv2. But you might consider -not- evac'ing the BFs at Batavia, Soerbja, Balikpapan, Tarakan, Palembang, and the other oil centers. If you pull these BFs, no or few engineers will be left to demolish the place when the base is captured (thus leaving the facilities largely intact).

If you're playing vs. the AI, evac everything you want. The AI is stupid enough that even with undamaged facilities, it's going to have trouble. But if it's a PBEM game, you'll probably want to leave BFs at each of the oil centers, just to insure that you kill -some- of the facilities (and who knows, sometimes you demolish most of them).

Leaving a BF at each of the oil centers, still gives you like 14 or 15 BFs that can be relocated, plus the 2 DAF Aviation units.

-F-

[Twotribes]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

One thing to remember is that at large airfields one base force will have a large aviation value based on the size of the airfield, not on its TOE. If the base force is moved it should return to the TOE value.

I like to evacuate some of the base forces at Singapore with high aviation support values and also the Dutch aviation support units on Java. The Dutch units are always important to my New Guniea campaign in '43. I also will pull a couple of base forces when from PI when playing the AI, but they take quite a while to reconstruct since they must be evacuated by sub.

I don't find this gamey at all. I only find something gamey when it is physically unrealistic, like refueling carriers at a size one port, or when it is politically unrealistic. One could make an argument that pulling the Dutch Aviation Units is politically unrealistic, but everything else seems on the level to me.

The only time the size of the base effects the allowed TO&E of a base or avaition unit is when it is the AI. Player controlled units NEVER grow past their TO&E as listed in the editor. The AI is allowed to cheat and one of their units will grow based on size of base, player controlled units WILL NOT exceed the TO&E ( except where the scenario starts them in excess) They will not grow larger than the TO&E.

Unless this changed in a recent patch, I specifically ask about this back last year. The response was that the ONLY time a base or avaition unit will grow past TO&E is if it is controlled by the AI.The same time I was informed that the moved base forces assume an incorrect TO&E number, they will NOT grow to that size.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Just be advised that the Dutch BF units, are also the engineers that attempt to destroy the oil/resources when the base falls.

By all means, evac DAFAv1 and DAFAv2. But you might consider -not- evac'ing the BFs at Batavia, Soerbja, Balikpapan, Tarakan, Palembang, and the other oil centers. If you pull these BFs, no or few engineers will be left to demolish the place when the base is captured (thus leaving the facilities largely intact)....Leaving a BF at each of the oil centers, still gives you like 14 or 15 BFs that can be relocated, plus the 2 DAF Aviation units.

-F-

Obviously good advise. I don't evac Dutch BF unless it is from some of the small island garrisons. I do try and take any extraneous forces I can because the allies need them in the middle years of the war. It seems that there are never enough BF and way too many eng units by 43.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The only time the size of the base effects the allowed TO&E of a base or avaition unit is when it is the AI. Player controlled units NEVER grow past their TO&E as listed in the editor. The AI is allowed to cheat and one of their units will grow based on size of base, player controlled units WILL NOT exceed the TO&E ( except where the scenario starts them in excess) They will not grow larger than the TO&E.

Unless this changed in a recent patch, I specifically ask about this back last year. The response was that the ONLY time a base or avaition unit will grow past TO&E is if it is controlled by the AI.The same time I was informed that the moved base forces assume an incorrect TO&E number, they will NOT grow to that size.
[/quote]

I looked this up in the rule book and you are correct. However, I am pretty sure that I have had some units actually grow according to the rule for the computer player. A bug maybe? I will have to pay closer attention to this.

[ckk]

IIRC some baseforces "grow" particularly Dutch by changing components and eventually become static

[Twotribes]

The bug is that when you move the at start Airbase forces and navy forces in the PI and elsewhere they change their TO&E , it then says they can grow 4 times as large as they actually can. I asked about this and was told it is a bug, the units will NOT grow to that sizes. And I have never had one go over the original TO&E size, no matter what their screen says.

Equipment changes as new things come on line, we cant see the equipment path upgrades, they are hidden from view. The TO&E will never shnge what it says though ( on that screen) the actually equipment will be listed on the uniy screen, but when you change to TO&E screen it will list the original equipment.

The Dutch units that go static are the Navy bases, they acquire static guns. I have never seen a non navy base of the Dutch go static. If you evacuate a Navy base yo better put it where you want it to stay, cause it can and does get static guns in transit.

I only move bases to the southern Islands ( Dutch) I no longer evac large numbers of them to India and Australia. I general save 2 or 3 American bases out of the Philippines and later if Bataan lasts long enough I may evac a piece of bases trapped there on submarine.

If Bataan lasts long enough I am also going to evac a piece of one PA, one PS and Philippine cav unit. No point in wasting the replacements you get. But that is not a priority.

I do save a majority of Duth air units, I disband them as they become ineffective till only one of the type remains, they end up on Timor. The returning unit is nearly useless with 25 to 30 skill pilots, so they get sent around to out of the way Australian Cities to train. I hate wasteing anything, never know when I might need one of those units.

[saj42]

I know baseforces are not supposed to enlarge their AV support BUT.....

[Twotribes]

That unit may start over strength, I will check and let you know.

[Twotribes]

That is weird. Wish my units would do that. Did you ever let the computer run the allies?

As for MAF, PAF and DAF units they are non formation units, they hae no base formation, so I assume what ever they started with is their allowed TO&E.

There are the ISF base units also ( near Singapore) they start with 120 Aviation support. Unfortunately they normally die as there is no easy way to evac them. Forgot to check if they have a base formation or not.

[saj42]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

That unit may start over strength, I will check and let you know.

It started at normal strength (I'm sure[&:]), then moved it to Thursday Is and based 32 a/c their regularly. Sometimes an extra sqn would stage through from PM to tenimbar etc

[ckk]

When I hit TOE for RAN's 1-4 they show 240 av support[X(]

[Twotribes]

According to the editor the Royal Australian Navy Base force has a TO&E of 30 avaition support. 103 should not grow past 30. that it does is a bug, a nice one, but a bug none the less )