Ideas to improve Japanese Garrison Requirements

[Tanaka]

As it is now most players just ignore garrison requirments. They are not really serving their purpose. Which is to place historical limits on Japanese Armies. If this was fixed/improved this would definitely stop a lot of the Japanese steamrolling.

How would you guys fix/improve this???

[WiTP_Dude]

It was suggested in one of the polls to double the China garrison requirement but I don't think it got too many votes.

[akdreemer]

Could you refresh my memory what the current penalties are for insufficient garrison are in the game, if any?

[Halsey]

The only way to stop all those Manchurian LCU's from going to China is to fix them into position like the Soviets. As it stands now the Japanese player will always move LCU's from Manchuria if there is any opportunity to do so. Here is an alternative approach.

Garrisons: 16,000 assault pts. Everything normal. No Russian Intervention. No supply/industry disruption.

14,000 assault pts. Cities considered half their normal size for supply spoilage.

12,000 assault pts. Cities considered three quarters their normal size for supply spoilage, and the destruction of HI kicks in.

8,000 assault pts. Same as 12,000 with possible Soviet Intervention.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

Could you refresh my memory what the current penalties are for insufficient garrison are in the game, if any?

Base facilities and industry facilities are subject to damage. This includes ports, airfields, fuel, supplies, oil, resources, and industry. Manpower is not affected.

The problem is that most of the bases have none if few of these and you can just ignore them and protect only the major/important bases. Thus you really only need to garrison a select very few bases if any at all....

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The only way to stop all those Manchurian LCU's from going to China is to fix them into position like the Soviets. As it stands now the Japanese player will always move LCU's from Manchuria if there is any opportunity to do so. Here is an alternative approach.

Garrisons: 16,000 assault pts. Everything normal. No Russian Intervention. No supply/industry disruption.

14,000 assault pts. Cities considered half their normal size for supply spoilage.

12,000 assault pts. Cities considered three quarters their normal size for supply spoilage, and the destruction of HI kicks in.

8,000 assault pts. Same as 12,000 with possible Soviet Intervention.

The Manchuko garrison requirements are a whole nother issue. Maybe the current requirment of 8000 points should be raised???

[2ndACR]

Frozen in place? I think not. I may not play historical, but I also do not move any Manchuria unit out of Manchuria until it's HQ is changed. And I still steamroll China along the rail line.

I will go for if garrison needs are not met in a base in China for 3 consecutive turns, that there will be a 70% chance of the base reverting to Chinese control and a Chinese militia regiment formed in the base.

On second thought, the same above should apply, but since alot of Chinese bases start the game under garrisoned, the 3 turns may be too short. Base takes damage as normal as long as 80% of the garrison requirment is met. That will give the Japanese player a chance to beef up garrisons, move forces around and fill out those garrisons.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

It was suggested in one of the polls to double the China garrison requirement but I don't think it got too many votes.

Increasing the garrison requirement will do nothing because:

Base facilities and industry facilities are subject to damage. This includes ports, airfields, fuel, supplies, oil, resources, and industry. Manpower is not affected.

The problem is that most of the bases have none if few of these and you can just ignore them and protect only the major/important bases. Thus you really only need to garrison a select very few bases if any at all....


thus the need to garrison needs to be changed not just the requirement.

[Mike Scholl]

Perhaps a better "quick fix" would be to move and/or increase the CHINESE production cities
back farther from the Japanese lines. The situation now just begs the Japanese to go for the
ones stuck out on the "front lines" both to further hamstring the Chinese, and to increase
their own potential. Another thought would be to slightly increase the Japanese Garrison
requirements to soak up a bit more of their available strength early---with the penalty that
ALL resources from any under-garrisoned city immediately arrive in Chungking. Both of these
ideas should "put a lid" on some of the more aggressive Japanese schemes while not leading
to any sudden increase in Chinese abilities.

[Tanaka]

i think the best solution is if you do not garrison your city it reverts back to chinese control and your supply is cut off. thus you HAVE to garrison!!!

giving the chinese extra bonuses and moving cities etc, is not very realistic or historical IMO but losing empty cities to partisians is.

[33Vyper]

That sounds like a good idea Tanaka. Perhaps unless you have at least 2/3 of the required garrison that they city goes into revolt? Partisans take control? Much heavier damage to industry/supplies? Complete supply disruption? Chinese partisan unit appears to cut off supply lines?

[Marten]

but you'll still have 2/3 garrison of japanese soldiers inside the city. what do you intent to do with them? move them to the nearby hex, or stay in the city and start street fighting with chinese partisants?

[tabpub]

I'm a lazy b*****d or I would do this myself....

What is the Japanese supply situation in China on Dec 7?
My limited knowledge of the subject has me recalling that the Japanese in China lived a very "hand to mouth" existance during the 40's. Most Japanese offensives were limited ones whose only purpose was to forage for foodstuffs around the harvest seasons. Only by 44 were they properly supplied (relatively) and motivated to make large attacks during "Ichi-Go".

So, one would think, that if the starting situation game wise some what reflected this, then you wouldn't have this fire drill in China from the get go. Perhaps if the bases had vastly reduced amounts of supply and the LCU's inherent supplies were set to ...say 1/2, then the Nipponese would be in more the situation that they found themselves in RL. They would either have to ship in vast stores of consumables, or wait for the resource centers that they start with to generate some surplus for their attacks.

[doktorblood]

The Chinese garrison requirements are fine the way they are. There's really only about a half dozen backwater bases that the Japs can desert without paying much penalty in lost supplies etc. for doing so. and these are mostley unimproved type bases that only require 10-30 APs anyway.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

The Chinese garrison requirements are fine the way they are. There's really only about a half dozen backwater bases that the Japs can desert without paying much penalty in lost supplies etc. for doing so. and these are mostley unimproved type bases that only require 10-30 APs anyway.

exactly. in real life they had to garrison them for obvious reasons. in witp they dont for obvious reasons.

[doktorblood]

For what obvious reason would the Japanese have to garrison some crappy little base like Anking, a size 1 airbase at the end of a dirt trail to the middle of nowhere? It has no value ... you could multiply it's garrison requirements 100 fold or even let it revert to Chinese control and I still wouldn't garrison it unless it started spawning Chinese armoured corps.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

For what obvious reason would the Japanese have to garrison some crappy little base like Anking, a size 1 airbase at the end of a dirt trail to the middle of nowhere? It has no value ... you could multiply it's garrison requirements 100 fold or even let it revert to Chinese control and I still wouldn't garrison it unless it started spawning Chinese armoured corps.

you would garrison it if your armies got cut off when the chinese partisians took it back from you behind your lines. thus in real life they had to garrison. in the game you dont have to worry about it. this is my point.

[doktorblood]

you would garrison it if your armies got cut off when the chinese partisians took it back from you behind your lines. thus in real life they had to garrison. in the game you dont have to worry about it. this is my point.

Well, Yes, I would. But any base that is in a location where a defection would cut off my LoC is also one that has a lot of supply that I don't want to lose running through it, hence needs to be garrisoned anyway.

[pfnognoff]

In general, I think nothing we do to Japan garrisons or Manchuko would be enough, because China is in trouble from start with the limited morale and slow movement rates through hexes without rail lines that drain the limited supply very quickly.

In my PBEM there was a massive struggle for Changsha that fell only after quite a few unsuccessfull Jap assaults. Battle left me with somewhere arround 10-12 Chinese corps with experiance over 70 but with morale level still down arround 30. I've pulled them back to Chungking to recover fatigue and supply. After a few weeks they all got back to full supply and they were battle ready with high exp. but still with low morale.
I thought they can be used offensively to try and find smaller Jap units, so I moved them forward. They didn't move very far (some 5-6 hexes allong the rail line) and their fatigue was back arround 30 and they all spent almost half their supply. The ones that moved off rail line just got stuck moving a few miles per day and very quickly loosing the supply.
Basically at the moment all that Chinese can do is pull back and wait for the inevitable Japanese thrust. There just isn't enogh supply for any other strategy and with morale levels allways staying low no matter what you do you can't do much.
To enable China to use it's one and only advantage and that is numbers, I think that movement rates for rural hexes should change to make movement quicker or the fatigue for moving units in temperate zones should increase more slowly. Or, am I missing the point of land units movement and combat completely, and you all think that a unit with fatigue 50 and suplly level of 40% is battle capable?

[AmiralLaurent]

Chinese Army should be almost unale to mount any offensive operation but was successfull in most defensive battles until 1944 (for example it repulsed several offensives against Changsa in 1941-42).

I think that each hex without a Japanese unit (with some Assault value) can't be used to bring supplies to forward bases. That will reduce a lot the number of frontline troops available to invade China and then every hex gained forward would need to be garissoned.
So, even if you divide divisions, you will need 3-4 of them to keep the supply line from Pekin to Yenen, so you can't have this troops to attack the city.

Basically, the whole Chinese situation should be a status-quo, as none of the two sides should be able to send enough troops to invade the other side cities.

On the other hand, they may advance enough troops to besiege an enemy city (and so stop its production).