Stoooopid. Fix this.

[MattFL]

The Norway mines appearing and trapping the English is silly. Fix this shit.

The result is the Luftwaffe simply moves to Denmark and bombs the living shit outta them.

[CHINCHIN]

The only solution here is to remove the event.

The only thing that would entail is that the axis would have to better protect Oslo and Frederikshavn.

[stjeand]

The only solution here is to remove the event.

The only thing that would entail is that the axis would have to better protect Oslo and Frederikshavn.

This could create a huge issue early on.

The Germans would need a large corps in Oslo since the UK could hit is with a huge attack the turn after it falls.
With a large corps the the entire navy a small corps or the Paratroopers wont' hold. Add to that they UK could just keep moving their navy in and sink MMs and once they get a foothold there the Germans are crippled.
To many fighters...

The mines have to be there...

The UK has to learn to stay out. Simple.

It is a mistake you make once.

[CHINCHIN]

I don't think it's that decisive. But it's clear that it would be a disadvantage for Germany.

[MattFL]

I'm not saying the mines should be removed, though they are pretty useless in any case, except in this example.

Rather, it would be good if the UK Navy was auto moved out of the mine trap sort of like when a country falls. Having the entire UK navy trapped is a disaster and completely unrealistic to have the Germans laying mines in the face of the UK navy.

As for the mines being useless, you can just invade the land hex adjacent to the mines with a division, do the same thing in Northern Denmark, and the mines are gone freeing up a large invasion of Oslo. So other than committing 2 divisions and using 20 transports/landing ships, the mines are pretty useless. I would do that now to free my navy, but the weather is bad obviously.

In any case, my guess is the entire UK Navy is going to be sunk by the end of 1939....

[stjeand]

Well you can't do it if there is a small corps there...they will hold the mine hex...
So it is not all that easy overall.

A smart German player make sure they have those hexes covered with ZOC or a unit to keep the UK out.

[MattFL]

Well you can't do it if there is a small corps there...they will hold the mine hex...
So it is not all that easy overall.

A smart German player make sure they have those hexes covered with ZOC or a unit to keep the UK out.

Yeah, sure. But this burns more units and if it's a small unit holding the mine hexes, it's easily moved. The Germans never have enough units to hold everything they need to hold.

But that's not the point, the point is that any Allied Navy there should be automoved, not just trapped forever until completely destroyed.

[stjeand]

Yeah, sure. But this burns more units and if it's a small unit holding the mine hexes, it's easily moved. The Germans never have enough units to hold everything they need to hold.

But that's not the point, the point is that any Allied Navy there should be automoved, not just trapped forever until completely destroyed.

Honestly...1 unit in Norway...you don't even need to man the capital if you put a small corps at the mines...
Then a small corps in Denmark with a single division. Yes it is more than necessary but only needed for a short time.


Lets be clear though...

Sorry but the Allied navy should NEVER enter those waters...EVER.

In fact I think the mines should just be there at games start...that would solve this issue overall.


The automove would require programming that honestly is a waste of resources but if possible great. Sadly it would only ever be used in this single case. There is no where else this could occur.

I suspect you learned to never do this again. I did...after I did it once.

[MattFL]

Yeah, sure. But this burns more units and if it's a small unit holding the mine hexes, it's easily moved. The Germans never have enough units to hold everything they need to hold.

But that's not the point, the point is that any Allied Navy there should be automoved, not just trapped forever until completely destroyed.

Honestly...1 unit in Norway...you don't even need to man the capital if you put a small corps at the mines...
Then a small corps in Denmark with a single division. Yes it is more than necessary but only needed for a short time.


Lets be clear though...

Sorry but the Allied navy should NEVER enter those waters...EVER.

In fact I think the mines should just be there at games start...that would solve this issue overall.


The automove would require programming that honestly is a waste of resources but if possible great. Sadly it would only ever be used in this single case. There is no where else this could occur.

I suspect you learned to never do this again. I did...after I did it once.

I've never done it before in many games. I just wasn't paying attention as the early game allies are a total snoozefest. The German navy was there so i sent like 9 ships over there to sink them and when the turn flipped, they were trapped and the weather turned.

Kind of a moot discussion at this point as there are only 3 ships left, heavily damaged, still very much trapped. Will be interesting to see what effect this has on the game.

Suffice it to say, i kinda disagree about the small corps. I go landing ship crazy and can easily push back a small corps, clear the mines, and invade empty Oslo and sometimes even copenhagen if they are undefended.

[stjeand]

I've never done it before in many games. I just wasn't paying attention as the early game allies are a total snoozefest. The German navy was there so i sent like 9 ships over there to sink them and when the turn flipped, they were trapped and the weather turned.

Kind of a moot discussion at this point as there are only 3 ships left, heavily damaged, still very much trapped. Will be interesting to see what effect this has on the game.

Suffice it to say, i kinda disagree about the small corps. I go landing ship crazy and can easily push back a small corps, clear the mines, and invade empty Oslo and sometimes even copenhagen if they are undefended.

Well with a small corps there...does not matter if you land 2 armored corps...you can't move it. You can't attack the unit because you can't land anything near it.
It would take a second turn in order to push the unit.

Now you could do that but that gives the Germans another turn to move more units to assist.

Norway.jpg (781.22 KiB) Viewed 292 times

I did find a bug though...a transport in hex 153, 72 can land in 154, 72. That is a huge problem. It is basically across the mine field...
This will change the way I defend the area now knowing this. Will need a small corps at least in Norway to protect the port...and a few in Denmark.
Then again taking the level 1 port in Denmark would not be overly useful. Not enough supply to keep a force moving.

You are not able to land in Norway and get next to the small corps to break the minefield until next turn. So you better have supplies and be ready to be our of supply for a few turns.

Best attack would be to land and take Stavanger and push for Oslo...as it is a level 4 port and can supply 2 armored corps. Sadly can't supply air. I have fought there before it is not overly fun...Germans normally get a armor in Olso and while that does help Russia...it really hampers the UK in that area. But with the correct timing...one never knows.

[MattFL]

I've never done it before in many games. I just wasn't paying attention as the early game allies are a total snoozefest. The German navy was there so i sent like 9 ships over there to sink them and when the turn flipped, they were trapped and the weather turned.

Kind of a moot discussion at this point as there are only 3 ships left, heavily damaged, still very much trapped. Will be interesting to see what effect this has on the game.

Suffice it to say, i kinda disagree about the small corps. I go landing ship crazy and can easily push back a small corps, clear the mines, and invade empty Oslo and sometimes even copenhagen if they are undefended.

Well with a small corps there...does not matter if you land 2 armored corps...you can't move it. You can't attack the unit because you can't land anything near it.
It would take a second turn in order to push the unit.

Now you could do that but that gives the Germans another turn to move more units to assist.

Norway.jpg

I did find a bug though...a transport in hex 153, 72 can land in 154, 72. That is a huge problem. It is basically across the mine field...
This will change the way I defend the area now knowing this. Will need a small corps at least in Norway to protect the port...and a few in Denmark.
Then again taking the level 1 port in Denmark would not be overly useful. Not enough supply to keep a force moving.

You are not able to land in Norway and get next to the small corps to break the minefield until next turn. So you better have supplies and be ready to be our of supply for a few turns.

Best attack would be to land and take Stavanger and push for Oslo...as it is a level 4 port and can supply 2 armored corps. Sadly can't supply air. I have fought there before it is not overly fun...Germans normally get a armor in Olso and while that does help Russia...it really hampers the UK in that area. But with the correct timing...one never knows.

If the Germans are gonna dedicate that much stuff to Defend Denmark and Norway, i'd be happy as a clam. I often invade in Norway just to make the Germans send stuff there and away from the Russian Front.

Watch out for the same tactic at Kiel where the Allies and land divisions and flip the mines and take the undefended ports there.

Won't matter in my current game of course, as i have no navy left.

[stjeand]

If the Germans are gonna dedicate that much stuff to Defend Denmark and Norway, i'd be happy as a clam. I often invade in Norway just to make the Germans send stuff there and away from the Russian Front.

Watch out for the same tactic at Kiel where the Allies and land divisions and flip the mines and take the undefended ports there.

Won't matter in my current game of course, as i have no navy left.

Oh I have done that many times...Kiel is great for supply but you can't evacuate due to mines that do not flip.
Again I keep a small corps near the mines so they won't flip. That is a a requirement.

Keeping a small corps in Norway is required for that reason...Any Axis player that does not will not win. You have to keep Oslo. The bigger issue is other locations there...and the convoy route that is far to easy to disrupt.

As for Denmark...finding this new bug is going to be a problem, defending it now requires a large corps, two divisions and as small corps...then again I would be very pleased if the UK invaded and took the level 1 port with multiple corps...just means they will die and delay their heavy invasion...

As the Axis I always have an extra mech or armor waiting...
And almost always have a corps showing up every turn in 41 / 42 for quick support.

Then again as the Allies I have done exactly what you have many times...normally only when Germany is deeper into Russia...To soon and you just suicide troops...but may delay Russia...

Sometimes I wait until mid 42...have to keep the Axis on their toes...

[MattFL]

If the Germans are gonna dedicate that much stuff to Defend Denmark and Norway, i'd be happy as a clam. I often invade in Norway just to make the Germans send stuff there and away from the Russian Front.

Watch out for the same tactic at Kiel where the Allies and land divisions and flip the mines and take the undefended ports there.

Won't matter in my current game of course, as i have no navy left.

Oh I have done that many times...Kiel is great for supply but you can't evacuate due to mines that do not flip.
Again I keep a small corps near the mines so they won't flip. That is a a requirement.

Keeping a small corps in Norway is required for that reason...Any Axis player that does not will not win. You have to keep Oslo. The bigger issue is other locations there...and the convoy route that is far to easy to disrupt.

As for Denmark...finding this new bug is going to be a problem, defending it now requires a large corps, two divisions and as small corps...then again I would be very pleased if the UK invaded and took the level 1 port with multiple corps...just means they will die and delay their heavy invasion...

As the Axis I always have an extra mech or armor waiting...
And almost always have a corps showing up every turn in 41 / 42 for quick support.

Then again as the Allies I have done exactly what you have many times...normally only when Germany is deeper into Russia...To soon and you just suicide troops...but may delay Russia...

Sometimes I wait until mid 42...have to keep the Axis on their toes...

One other strategy i employ is to blockade Oslo with the English Navy (subs/ships along the coast) so it can't be invaded before winter sets in. I maintain blockode pretty much forever and then England invades and captures Oslo first chance it gets in the thaw. But alas, in my current game where i just wasn't paying attention, i forgot to.

[stjeand]

One other strategy i employ is to blockade Oslo with the English Navy (subs/ships along the coast) so it can't be invaded before winter sets in. I maintain blockode pretty much forever and then England invades and captures Oslo first chance it gets in the thaw. But alas, in my current game where i just wasn't paying attention, i forgot to.

I think I did that once and the German airforce and subs came over and decimated my fleet.
I lost 2 CVs and 3 BB...had to retreat...since I had little left.
NOW that is a great strategy with the French fleet, which I see people do.

I don't like it. A bit of an exploit.

I think the "fix" for this should be to just put the mines in place at the start of the game.
IF the UK want to invade...you can't stop it but it should then push countries like Yugoslavia to join the Axis and Sweden since they feel threatened.
Or even Spain...there should be some consequences for the Allies...since there is basically nothing stopping them from going invasion happy.

Whereas if Germany invades the UK the US may join...they invaded Poland so UK and France went against them...

Put in some of those and things may level out.

[michaelCLARADY]

The prospect of unpredictable consequences even in a minor country like Norway- invade/counter invade bet the entire Navy with a Montrose's Toast-

"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his desserts are small,
Who dares not put it to the touch,
To win or lose it all!"

James Graham, 5th Earl of Montrose
1612 to 1650
Royalist General during the English Civil War

are what makes this game so interesting.

[CHINCHIN]

The solution that Stjeand suggests, that they are there from the beginning, I think is the best solution.

Since it prevents the Allied player from sacrificing the French fleet, and warns of the possibility of being trapped if the Axis controls the mined hexes.

[stjeand]

I forgot that many players will use the French fleet to just sit around Oslo...which again would never have happened.

That basically means the Axis have to wait for France to surrender in order to attack Norway.


Norway is already an issue IF the Allies decide to really push the issue.
A single division taking Narvik will mean the Axis will lose 25 PP per month in the winter.
I will sometimes send a division out to sea and just sit there for months waiting to invade Norway after the Axis does...so what if the unit has 10% efficiency...it can still capture a port.

I am sure someone will say OH it is easy to take back...
Not if the Allies fight. I move a large corps there...the Axis will require at least an armor and a full corps to maybe...just maybe move it...since the UK navy can be there. With the navy there even 2 armor will not likely move a full corps guarding the rough...since they will only muster 1 to 1 at best.
Yes the Axis airforce can move up there but what, 2 air at best, unless you build airfields.

NOW it is getting crazy expensive with oil and armor...

Anytime I have taken Narvik the Axis just lose it.


What I think should happen in Norway is the following.


1. Mines appear turn 1...Honestly...no real effect on the game. This keeps the French navy out...the UK navy out...so no more stuck ships.
2. Norwegian ports can not be supplied by Allies until Jan 1942, maybe mid 41...IF the Axis have not taken it by then, it is likely they will not bother. This would cover the issue where the Allies sent a force to Narvik but it could not be supplied due to German intervention. That is not "possible" in the current game for Germany to prevent this...since even basic supply will keep them fine.
3. Remove the mines IF Norway is Neutral when the ports can be supplied by the Allies.