Further feedback on game balance

[sveint]

I have quite a few games of the "Soviet Winter" scenario completed, and my statistics are:

Axis: no losses
Allies: 1, most likely 2, losses

So for me at least the game is still slightly in favor of the Axis.

But, in another game (modded scenario), I am encountering a major problem as the Soviets:
The "forming" armies are not getting ready at a sufficient pace.
I don't think the randomness here is a good thing, it can cost the Soviets the game.
So I'd like to suggest that for WarPlan2 the reinforcements come at a fixed pace.

[AlvaroSousa]

I might be able to correct it now. Let me think how I can.

[sveint]

Thank you Alvaro.

I forgot to mention the Soviet Winter scenario is very fun to play. Win or lose, it's always close enough for a lot of suspense.

[AlvaroSousa]

Maybe I will consider it as standard for WP2

[canuckgamer]

In my opinion the game should "slightly" favour the Allies but it seems to me that with equal players it is difficult for the Allies to win. We are currently in a PBEM game and it will be our first with the historical winter weather rule in the USSR and the increased movement for their mech in the spring of 42. It is now mid March 1941. The Axis did not declare Vichy so France was not conquered until late 1940. In the meantime, the UK sent a number of corps to defend western Africa. The Axis currently have 3 panzers and 7 total aircraft of which 3 are German. Earlier they lost a mech but the UK has lost about 3 corps. The Axis have slogged their way west and are now on the border of Morocco.
I continue to be surprised at how powerful the German panzers are even when they are attacking full strength UK infantry corps defending in mountain and hill hexes and across rivers. I know there is a defensive advantage and mech are less effective attacking this type of terrain but it is unrealistic to have panzers attacking mountain hexes with any kind of success.
I only see the minimum 6 units on the Russian front so it looks to me like the Axis are not going to invade in 1941 and concentrate on taking North Africa, west and east. The Russians do not enter until May 42 and the Allies cannot counter by having the USSR declare war on the Axis before then. This means the Axis will not be hit with the 1941/42 historical winter weather. I assume that the USSR mech will still have their ops increased to 7 in the spring of 42.
The Allies do have the UK well garrisoned in case the Axis try to invade.
The Axis ground attack formula which they use over and over again is to hit the defending unit with multiple ground strikes, leave one for ground support and then conduct multiple attacks with panzers with the infiltration specialty. This combination has been able to push through any defensive line regardless of the terrain. It is almost automatic suicide for any defending unit to in the hold mode as they will eventually be overrun. Maybe there should be a larger loss in efficiency for an attack by mec?. A German panzer starting adjacent to an Allied unit can attack it 10 times!
I realize that WP is a complex game but I think additional tweaks are required to make it more "balanced".

[canuckgamer]

How about allowing the USSR to begin building armies July 41 regardless of whether the Axis have DOW on them? Maybe their production should be ramped up as well.

A question I forgot to ask is that if the Axis do not invade in 1941 does the transfer of the production still occur on the designated dates?

[ncc1701e]

Maybe I will consider it as standard for WP2

+1000. You have always been too hard for the Russians. There are plenty of games where if you know what you are doing, you can stop the Germans in 1941 on better front lines.

Then there is player skills but we have learned.

[battlevonwar]

I played more than a patch or 2 ago vs sveint and MM, I found that the Axis depended a little on good weather and keeping Italy in ... Then also distracting the Axis as soon as possible if that was viable.

I think the battle of N.Africa/Atlantic should be vital instead of the constant Normandy invasions which historically was what delayed things that and Italy for going into France plus Allied Readiness. The shape of Libya and Egypt allows for Amphibious invasions which should be a slight bit more limited I think? They make for 1 or 2 corps totally cutting the front line supply so you pack things in like you pack a turkey.

In the East, the Axis supply and weariness really smashed them. In game you have to allow for the encircling or you remove any of the joy of the 1st Barbarossa. Though Historically you also had a very strong USSR Force that was undeniably going to give the Germans a horrendous army to fight. The Russians had over 20,000 tanks but were not ready for war. It would of took them well in '42 to be a good fighting force. They were exacting massive casualties against the Axis through '41 before Winter.


The game is balanced and or was in the right hands but the best Axis player will win most often cause their panzers used just right cut deep into the Soviets and if you can't counter this with hordes of Russians you're done. Think of a Straight line through the Fronts/Rivers/converging through the Marshes and rough terrain by July ... Leningrad going to go, Moscow too, you can't rebuild fast enough. The very best Russian Defense may stand a slight chance. I've seen Sveint smash though and or MM.

[AlvaroSousa]

Tough to balance with hindsight.

[generalfdog]

I would say early balance is spot on, 41 is perfect, although I would prefer to see some incentive for soviets to do a more historical forward deployment, 42 is pretty good, but can be a little to rough for ussr, the issue i have seen is 43 and onwards if the Germans have played conservatively and not taken huge losses, they can simply go on the defense and the allies don't have the production to take them out especially if Ussr took a beating. Maybe not actually that ahistorical since one could see the war lasting another year or more if Hitler didn't make some of the huge blunders that he made, but since, the game has a hard end that doesn't give us another year it is considered a loss for the Allies

[kklemmick]

With the caveat that I have completed only one game in total, I think the balance up to '41 favors the Axis slightly. I say slightly, because despite the fact that I think it is impossible to stop the Axis from taking the Middle East, or invading England and getting Spain in the war, which is very a-historical, I like the fact that the game allows a determined Axis player to have those options. If the Allies play well, the Allies can inflict severe enough losses on the Axis that it should (in theory) cause problems for the Axis later in the game. My most recent game with ncc1701e, I took so many losses (primarily Italian naval and air) taking the Middle East, that it's difficult to tell if this was a net win for me. We'll see as the game progresses. The main advantage of taking the Middle East IMO (besides the oil), is that you can get Turkey to join the Axis, which adds a lot of bulk to the Axis army. I would abandon the effort if it looked like I couldn't secure it by Spring '41.

I don't think there needs to be any adjustments for a '42 invasion of the USSR. In my experience the USSR is essentially a steel wall by then and this means the Germans have already lost the war. But again, I need more games under my belt to solidify this opinion. I would be curious to hear if anyone has mounted a successful '42 invasion of the USSR against a competent player?

I really would love to play a game as the Axis past '42. I'm thankful to michaelCLARADY and ncc1701e that they both seem willing to play the game out, as I really would like to see the mechanics of the late war on the axis first hand.

[AlvaroSousa]

As a note the UK and USA should be sending the USSR maximum PPs every turn until they turn it around.

[ncc1701e]

The great advantage for Axis is that taking Middle East, give it access to Baku right away. Six supplied Panzer Corps ready for the invasion of USSR near Baku is just a nightmare.

[kklemmick]

The great advantage for Axis is that taking Middle East, give it access to Baku right away. Six supplied Panzer Corps ready for the invasion of USSR near Baku is just a nightmare.

Yeah, attacking from that angle in '41 it's impossible for the USSR to hold Baku, so Turkey goes in the war, which isn't a massive game changer, but does add a lot of needed mass to the Axis forces. Getting those oil spots might make a difference too, as I tend to run low on oil as the USSR with all those armored corps.

The only defense against this I've seen is that the Allies MUST conquer Persia before the Axis can get there. Doing this removes the supply source and makes the attack into southern Russia nearly impossible, as they're only able to draw supply from the Persian gulf ports. It only takes one corp to do this, then run away.

[AlvaroSousa]

Which historically happened