How to break a soviet line in 41'?

[clonedino]

This will sound pretty silly, but I do not understand how to accomplish any sort of breakthrough in this game, and as a result, no encirclements. I simply do not understand how it is done. I have probably played 20+ campaigns plus scenarios(all starting in 1941 as the Germans) and every game has ended around turn 5-8, except one. All ended with nearly identical frontlines; a small 2 hex perimeter around Pskov and a small salient around Smolensk after capturing it. I don't have to many issues in AGS and I can usually maintain some semblance of an advance although usually still with zero significant encirclements outside the initial one or so. I have no complaints, I know the situation is fairly historical and this is purely a skill issue, I simply can not figure out how to do it. I watch videos, and I have asked some questions on this forum.

Here are my general tactics and strategies. I shoot for the three hex breakthrough. The problem I find is that I have to achieve these breakthroughs with motorized formations as infantry is to slow. Usually creating this breakthrough requires me to expend all the CPP and significant portions of the TOE of 4 or 5 Panzer/Motorized divisions, and I usually don't win some of these battles. My tactic is usually utilizing two motorized and a panzer in one stack to go through and attain significant wins over these Soviet divisions. I hasty attack clear ground will deliberately attacking with this stack or less depending on the opposing Soviet units and its fort level and whatnot. I win most attacks, but lose enough to matter. Great, breakthrough achieved, the second half of the panzer Gruppe can exploit it. The problem I find is there is usually a strong second echelon of units roughly two or three hexes behind the main line and this one is simply impossible to break. So the situation I am always in by turn 5 is I have done a solid turn 1 and 2, then I launch some sort of second phase of the offensive with high CPP formations on primarily clear terrain. This second offensive always fails, always. I have yet to have a single one work. I rush as much infantry up as possible and use them to breakthrough, they lose roughly 50% of their battles unless I doom stack, and that means 1 guarantied attack, maybe a second win before running out of MP's. I maintain high CPP's in the motorized formations specifically for these turn 3/4 attacks and I can never get this breakthrough.

Again, there are no complaints levelled against the game here. I think it's awesome.I need to "git gud", and that's ok. I just need help so I can at least survive to 1942 and launch some poorly thought out major summer offensive than crumble under the unrelenting weight of Soviet manpower and production capabilities. Any help appreciated, I will start new games and upload the files so someone can walk me through what I am doing wrong if need be. I have 86 hours in this game and I love it, but for some reason the hardest part is not the logistics portions or the air war, it's just developing some operations with an offensive strength that punches farther than 5 hexes in 2 turns.

[clonedino]

I would also be open to playing as the Soviets against an experienced German player and getting smacked just so I can see what they do. I have no dignity anymore, just a desire to figure out what I am doing wrong.

[Jango32]

If you want to do pockets (which do not work well in Player vs Player games) then unless the forces opposing you are trash units with less than 2k men, you always want to deliberate attack to brush aside the first line of defense. If there are strong in-depth lines of defense, then you need to brush them aside too and hope they rout inside or they retreat in a favourable hex.

The "meta" is to simply do WW1 frontal assault grinds to first make enemy units retreat (this will usually result in many damaged elements that do not participate in combat anymore other than taking hits) with infantry divisions, and then smash with mobile units (Panzer divisions or motorised infantry divisions) to cause routs with lots of casualties or even outright shatters. I must stress out that pockets in PvP games are something you will very rarely be able to pull off after turn 2 against an experienced Soviet player - so your only viable alternative is to do WW1 frontal assault grinds as prescribed above.

Using frontal assault grinds by manipulating retreat paths you'll be able to inflict at least 100 000 losses on the Soviets every turn. Note that from mid 1942 onward the Soviet player can do the same thing to you.

For AI games, pocketing should be possible especially in 1941 because the AI never really attacks until around November/December.

[Jango32]

With Pskov, you really need to advance as far as possible in the first 3 turns to prevent a Soviet defensive line forming around the Plyussa and Luga rivers. If such a line happens then it falls to WW1 frontal assault grinds to reach Leningrad.

[terry1040]

Here are my general tactics and strategies. I shoot for the three hex breakthrough. The problem I find is that I have to achieve these breakthroughs with motorized formations as infantry is to slow. Usually creating this breakthrough requires me to expend all the CPP and significant portions of the TOE of 4 or 5 Panzer/Motorized divisions, and I usually don't win some of these battles. My tactic is usually utilizing two motorized and a panzer in one stack to go through and attain significant wins over these Soviet divisions. I hasty attack clear ground will deliberately attacking with this stack or less depending on the opposing Soviet units and its fort level and whatnot. I win most attacks, but lose enough to matter. Great, breakthrough achieved, the second half of the panzer Gruppe can exploit it. The problem I find is there is usually a strong second echelon of units roughly two or three hexes behind the main line and this one is simply impossible to break.

Here is what I would do:

1) Start the initial breakthrough with well rested INF-Divisions only. Do not burn the MPs of your precious Pz/Mot-Divisions. Once the initial line is open (and I agree to your 3 hex approach, use the center hex for further exploitation. Do not use the Pz if not needed, and if needed, use them for hasty only. If you do need a punch at the 2nd line, only use the Mot-Div, ideally again stacked and hasty only. Any diliberate attack will burn too many MPs to achieve an encirclement later.

2) Also, go for small encirclements, especially against a human opponent.

3) If possible, use 2 angles of attack for larger encirclements, i.e. one PzArmy attacks from the North, another one from the south and they meet in the center.

All of that should give you plenty of opportuntiy to encircle enemy units and hold the perimeter during the opponents turn.

Only in the turn after, clean up the encirclement with Infantry divisiona from the rear and rest your Pz/Mot units for the next encirclement. Park them in friendly hexes to qucikly regain compbat power.

Cheers
Terry

[Fraggo5]

Watch the first couple of turns of XTRG's YouTube series from a while back now to see how he pockets on the first turn and go from there . I'm sure it will help.
https://youtu.be/_J88eJsfTPw?list=PLbSx ... KUIocSw-dz

[ErickRepie]

These might be useful :
1. Race to capture Pskov on turn 3
2. Dont forget to borrow one Pzkorps from 3rd PzArmee (after they conquered Vitebsk and Smolensk)
3. One korps from 18th Armee to capture Talinn
From Pskov 4th Pzarmee should try swing right to capture Novgorod and final destination near Orienabum/Kotly -- to trap Russian.
4. Break inf.div into 3 part to face russian frontline
5. Use pz.div and mot.div to move primarily

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I think one thing that is important to get the hang of is planning the location of your 'jumping off' point for an offensive. What you want to aim for is a situation where your offensive has at least 1 alternative direction it could go in. That forces the Soviets to defend multiple axes and spread their defensive power.

To use AGN as an example - once you get to Ostrov your offensive can head north to try and encircle forces round Pskov or north-east through the easier terrain towards Novgorod (with an ongoing threat to anything that stays around Pskov). If the Soviets have heavily defended the Pskov area you try and go round the back of them. If it looks like both directions are heavily defended then the Soviets have either over-committed to that front (in which case take advantage with AGC or AGS) or potentially you might be able to shift your attacks south east towards Velikie Luki with the longer term plan of using 4PG to put additional pressure on the approaches to Moscow.

To be honest if you have done multiple campaigns in 86hrs (or even 860hrs) that suggests to me that you are playing too quickly and treating the game more like an RTS. In general, and in particular with the Axis in 1941, it is really important to plan your turn out from the beginning so that you know exactly what you are trying to achieve and with which forces. Unless you're playing a very strong human opponent you don't need to 'min/max' everything and plan for every single attack/movement point but I think that even against the AI if you just point and click and try and make your decisions 'on the fly' you will run into trouble quite quickly. As your skill level increases you can be more aggressive in exploiting opportunities that arise as your turn develops but that exploitation still needs to be a reasoned deviation from an initial plan.

One final thought having reread your OP - I think it is really important to keep an eye on the fatigue of your units. Just going off my own experience, fatigue levels seem to have a big effect on combat performance and also don't seem to 'translate' to the displayed CV strengths. As an example (everyone will have their own rules of thumb) if you have a unit at 80+ CPP but 50+ fatigue that unit may well bring much less CV to the battle than the on-map counter suggests.

[K62]

Here's another thread that you may find useful: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... d#p5043167

The fastest way to learn is actually by taking things slow and really focusing on the details. Also, a helpful tip is to play with the fog of war turned off at first. That way, you get a better idea of what to expect from good reconnaissance, which is a pretty tough skill to learn on its own. Don't worry, you'll get there! This game is pretty complex, and it'll take a good amount of time and practice before you get the hang of it.

[clonedino]

If you want to do pockets (which do not work well in Player vs Player games) then unless the forces opposing you are trash units with less than 2k men, you always want to deliberate attack to brush aside the first line of defense. If there are strong in-depth lines of defense, then you need to brush them aside too and hope they rout inside or they retreat in a favourable hex.

The "meta" is to simply do WW1 frontal assault grinds to first make enemy units retreat (this will usually result in many damaged elements that do not participate in combat anymore other than taking hits) with infantry divisions, and then smash with mobile units (Panzer divisions or motorised infantry divisions) to cause routs with lots of casualties or even outright shatters. I must stress out that pockets in PvP games are something you will very rarely be able to pull off after turn 2 against an experienced Soviet player - so your only viable alternative is to do WW1 frontal assault grinds as prescribed above.

Using frontal assault grinds by manipulating retreat paths you'll be able to inflict at least 100 000 losses on the Soviets every turn. Note that from mid 1942 onward the Soviet player can do the same thing to you.

For AI games, pocketing should be possible especially in 1941 because the AI never really attacks until around November/December.

This makes the most sense really. 1941 to my mind should be two/three major planned encirclements and a series of operational breakthroughs for minor gains and inflicting large casualties. The problem with this is it seems I can't win any sort of attack with my infantry divisions after turn 2 or 3. I try attacking with two or three divisions almost full TOE and CPP yet any unit with more than a 1 fort level is highly likely to beat off the attack and it's not even close. I get stuck in this habit of attacking with Panzer divisions because they are simply the only force I find will win any battle without two or three turns of prep and line settling between every breakthrough. This is really my problem. I get the theory, but my units don't seem to be able to accomplish the same things I see in AAR's. Using infantry for breakthroughs is great and ridiculously obvious, except a Soviet division entrenched seems to be worth three or four of my infantry divisions easily. This creates a bad situation where I need at least two full infantry corps to create the desired breakthrough and that is simply impossible to create without leaving major gaps in the line.

[M60A3TTS]

The problem with this is it seems I can't win any sort of attack with my infantry divisions after turn 2 or 3. I try attacking with two or three divisions almost full TOE and CPP yet any unit with more than a 1 fort level is highly likely to beat off the attack and it's not even close.

The most obvious explanation is you are using hasty attacks. You know how to do a deliberate attack using the shift key, yes?

[Veterin]

I agree with Jango on this one. Dictating retreat paths and subsequent routing of those units is very effective in this game and it has few of the downsides of attempting to pocket units.

[Rexzapper]

The most obvious explanation is you are using hasty attacks. You know how to do a deliberate attack using the shift key, yes?

It seems clear that he was using "hasty attacks", I can't find any other reasonable explanation for what he indicates.

I hasty attack clear ground will deliberately attacking with this stack or less depending on the opposing Soviet units and its fort level and whatnot.

Even though he writes this, how strange.

[hei1]

As far as I experienced, it is important against entranched units to have support units (SU) at side: artillery and pioneer units. Hasty attacks with moved HQs do not provide this. 4-6 SUs plus a good general should do the job - by IDs. Leave enough motIDs for the breakthrough. PzD only for closing the gap (or shattering retreated units).

[TallBlondJohn]

Some screenshots might help, including the combat results. Are your attacking units in HQ range?

[clonedino]

Some screenshots might help, including the combat results. Are your attacking units in HQ range?

I am starting a new campaign in the next few days. I will utilize some of the tips here as some of them are definitely very helpful. I will post relevant screenshots if I get in similar stuck situations that I personally feel are insurmountable yet obviously aren't. Thank you for all the help so far guys!