Where are the Panzer IIIs

[rmonical]

I've always thought the number of Panzer IIIs allocated to the East ran low. I finally got around to counting.

The at start number (6/41), 1009, agrees exactly with Niehorster.
http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net ... -06-22.htm

Niehorstor shows another 450 of these early Pz III types not in units. These never appear in WITE. I suspect most of these are the worn out tanks from the Balkans. I'm sure some would be eventually scrapped but most should make it to the East. 210 Pz III Js arrive with 2nd and 5th Panzer. This could be some of those tanks having been repaired and upgraded. I'm not sure if Pz IIIs were diverted to tank crew training.

There is some disagreement on Pz III J production. Some sources, including Wikipedia, only show 1600 Pz III J variants. However, when you add up the variant totals in Wikipedia, you get 4661, more than a thousand fewer than the 5770 generally agreed top line total.

It appears to me WITE Pz III production is 800 light. It is only partially made up by the Panzer IIIs in reinforcements and 450 early model Pz IIIs "vanish". Stated differently, 27% of the Panzer IIIs that existed on 6/41 or were produced thereafter never appear in the East. This number just seems high to me.

In the spreadsheet, Pz III J L42 and L60 production are combined to match the sources and Pz III L&M are combined to match WITE.

[Denniss]

The production of later Panzer III versions is confusing indeed.
The most recent production numbers from research by Thomas L. Jentz are:
~1520 Panzer III Ausf J (short 5 cm)
~1470 Panzer III Ausf L (long 5 cm gun, initial production as Ausf. J subversion but name changed in 3/42)
617 Panzer III Ausf. M
614 ausf. N (+ ~40 conversions)

This is all excluding the command tanks (81 J based on J tank, fully armed with trainable turret, 50 K based on M, fully armed with trainable turret). I don't know how these command tanks are handled in Wite, excluded or not (initial models with fixed turret and dummy main gun).

In WitE some Panzer III arrive with later reinforcement divs or SS unit upgrades (that are modeled as new divs). Many older Pz III were upgraded to latest armament and armor specs during factory overhaul but this is not modeled a well.

[rmonical]

The most recent production numbers from research by Thomas L. Jentz are:
~1520 Panzer III Ausf J (short 5 cm)
~1470 Panzer III Ausf L (long 5 cm gun, initial production as Ausf. J subversion but name changed in 3/42)
617 Panzer III Ausf. M
614 ausf. N (+ ~40 conversions)

So, per Jentz, we are in agreement that production is low.

In WitE some Panzer III arrive with later reinforcement divs or SS unit upgrades (that are modeled as new divs).

I found slightly over 500 arriving as reinforcements. That leaves 1500 unaccounted for. WITW has less than 350 at start and in reinforcements. Were 1100 Pz IIIs lost in the West 6/41-7/43?

[darbycmcd]

Did you account for N. Africa.... That accounts for c.700 of the III in total IIRC

[Gabriel B.]

posibly more , see ron klages post at AHF:


http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 40#p724833

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.
posibly more , see ron klages post at AHF:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 40#p724833

Thanks for the reference. I looked but did not find this thread. So not as bad as I feared. I count roughly 300 missing Pz IIIs.

[Denniss]

Early Pz III models were not scrapped as they could be easily upgraded with more armor and long 5cm gun, all Pz III starting with Ausf. F were eligible for this.
In 44 many were degraded to secondary duties or even converted into recovery vehicles.

The upgrade part is completely missing in WitE - in 44 there were some Pz IVd upgraded with armor and long gun known to exist, same with old StuGs.

[rmonical]

While examining the Panzer IVs I refined the numbers for Pz IIIs through the beginning of WITW. I forgot the motorized divisions had medium tanks when they were withdrawn. In the case of the 3,29 Mot they are withdrawn from WITE as Mot with medium tanks and appear in WITW as PG with Stugs. Not sure what happened with the 36 motorized. Anyway, this is how I counted the net reinforcements and withdrawals from WITE.

[rmonical]

This is the updated accounting for Pz IIIs. There is an increase of some 60 unaccounted Panzer IIIs all due to the uncertain dynamics of the withdrawals. The game engine will build the divisions up to 75% - I suspect in actuality, they were much weaker when they were pulled out. For example, 29.PG shows up in WITW at 68% strength and 70 morale.

[rmonical]

I took a detailed look at Pz IV longs. It looks almost OK as of the beginning of WITW. One problem I see is total WITE production for Pz IVh is 2544 verses 3774 historical. I see that WITW ups production by 10 per week, but that only makes up half of the difference. Most of this production shortfall appears after 7/1/43. Same situation for the PzIVjs. So just looking at the raw numbers, it appears the Germans are shorted PzIV longs from early '43 on. Another source shows 8156 PzIV longs 42-45.

[rmonical]

7/1/43 analysis of the Pz IV longs. This looks OK.

I have no way of know how many PzIVhs had been produced by 7/1/43. WITE has 318 but I count 404.

Just to reiterate, to get the tank accounting I take the WITE at start (comparing to Niehorstor), add production, add net reinforcements per above, add WITW at start and subtract Africa shipments including losses.

[Denniss]

36th is one of the demotorized divs that are withdrawn and replaced with inf. It's withdrawn again as crushed in 44 and reappears as 36th SS Grenadier.

The game engine tries to build withdrawing units up to 100% (or up to the last MaxTOE level if >=75%).

BTW the historical Pz IV (long) production is 1927 Ausf. G, ~2324 H and 3160 J (excluding conversions of older Pz IV).

[rmonical]

Thanks Dennis. I think there are 40 Pz IV shorts in depot at the beginning of the campaign that get "lost". Other than that, these look good. In summary, up through 7/1/43 the only issue I see are Pz III and IVs in depot at the campaign's start getting lost. After 7/1/43, I have real concerns around PzIV production. The numbers in WITE are low. The added 10 per week in WITW helps, but these will be further reduced by strategic bombing. One problem WITW has is simulating the destruction of equipment between the factory and the front. IMHO, the major impact of this dynamic is after June '44.

[Denniss]

WitW only uses two Pz IV factories if my memory serves right. in 43 three manufacturers produced 2983 Pz IV (785 Krupp, 816 Vomag, 1381 Nibelungenwerke), in 44 it was 3125 Pz IV of which 2815 came from Nibelungenwerk. In Summer 44 they reached their maximum production with 300 tanks but afterwards suffered from bombings on the assembly factories and the armor suppliers.

[darbycmcd]

Are you counting Italian front deployment? Specifically XIV Panzer Corp. And are you sure you are counting all incoming reinforcement establishments? I can imagine there is potential for problems by separating the production in the two games, although they are supposed to represent one big pool. It will be much easier to track when they put the two together.

If you can show a couple thousand short it is a big deal, but don't get so worked up about a couple hundred. You are missing tanks returned to factory, converted, into training establishment, etc.

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
Are you counting Italian front deployment? Specifically XIV Panzer Corp. And are you sure you are counting all incoming reinforcement establishments? I can imagine there is potential for problems by separating the production in the two games, although they are supposed to represent one big pool. It will be much easier to track when they put the two together.

If you can show a couple thousand short it is a big deal, but don't get so worked up about a couple hundred. You are missing tanks returned to factory, converted, into training establishment, etc.

It is trivial to count elements in the game engine. So I got them all unless the scenario has changed recently.

It looks to me like Pz IV production is a couple thousand low in 43-44.

My analysis shows the Pz IIIs available to WITE to be low by about 9% because units in depot do not make it back into the game. A solution is to increase the Pz IIIj/43 production to accommodate the repair, upgrade and return to service of the missing units.

[Denniss]

Several newly formed or reorganized (Waffen-SS) formations arrive with lots of tanks.

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: Denniss
Several newly formed or reorganized (Waffen-SS) formations arrive with lots of tanks.

It gets really complicated. You cannot look at arrivals in isolation - they are frequently matched with a withdrawal that subtracts panzer count. Let's start with the 7/1/43 baseline which has a decent accounting of Pz-IVs. Consider LAH-I.SS. It's tanks are counted. It withdraws and appears in WITW with with Panther Ds instead of PzIIIs. The reasonable assumption is the Panther Ds were issued from production in WITE. It then withdraws from WITW in November appearing as a Pz division in WITE. It is assumed to have upgraded in WITW. And so on. So the back and forth should be ignored and we should focus on the new arrivals in either theater. So concentrating on the Pz IVh production period (approximately to June 44), the only completely new arrival s I find are 25.Pz and Pz Lehr with 140 Pz IVs.

That does not come close to addressing the 1200 missing Pz IVh.

[rmonical]

I notice that 25.Pz arrives in the East Dec/43 and is not in the West at start of WITW. It is shown as in the East.

[rmonical]

Take WITE in isolation. From 7/1/43 until the end of the PzIVh production period these are the dynamics. Of the WITE available PzIVh (42/week) 27/week are allocated to the east in '43 and 24/week in 44. So of the 2455 possible in WITE 1577, arrive in the east by production and 120 (net) by reinforcement. That means 1697/3774 historical PzIVhs are available in the east.

I think this is a significant issue in the scenario design.