Aircraft Research - How much is too much?

[SenToku]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

I have to disagree about B6N2a. It is worth reserching.

On pure logistical side it goes like this; Presuming, that B6N2a arrives around January 1944 (12/43-3/44) and you upgrade your TB production (realistically around 30-50 planes/mo) immediately to new model and start to upgrading your flying units right away (around 25-30 squadrons, averaging something like 15 A/C per unit = around 400 aircraft) you will be close to done upgrading your units when the radar goes active. All this is free of any supply/HI costs and provided that you built a normal combat loss pool of B6N2 model, you never run short of planes. Thus, when 9/44 turns into 10/44, every frontline squardon is suddenly radar equipped.

Also B6N2a has a heavy defensive machinegun, versus 7.7 mm on B6N2 model = higher gun rating.

Drawback is that you keep few R&D factories tied up, but you will have several others free around same time, so this is not something Japanese needs to worry about, in my opinion.

About Kamis... My personal opinion is that fighters should be used as escort, not kamis when possible. Even if flying with completely green pilots, in obselete crates that are hacked from the sky by Hellcats and Corsairs at will, it is still worth doing as they tie the CAP up for those few minutes they take to die. Buying time and reducing CAP numbers (at least few will run low with ammo) while the kamis with decent bomb load (medium bombers, D4Y4s, Tobedo bombers, Ki-115s) head towards their targets.

Also, I got the idea somewhere that plane's durability affected the Kami damage? Was I wrong?

Edit;typos.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: SenToku

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

I have to disagree about B6N2a. It is worth reserching.

On pure logistical side it goes like this; Presuming, that B6N2a arrives around January 1944 (12/43-3/44) and you upgrade your TB production (realistically around 30-50 planes/mo) immediately to new model and start to upgrading your flying units right away (around 25-30 squadrons, averaging something like 15 A/C per unit = around 400 aircraft) you will be close to done upgrading your units when the radar goes active. All this is free of any supply/HI costs and provided that you built a normal combat loss pool of B6N2 model, you never run short of planes. Thus, when 9/44 turns into 10/44, every frontline squardon is suddenly radar equipped.

Also B6N2a has a heavy defensive machinegun, versus 7.7 mm on B6N2 model = higher gun rating.

Drawback is that you keep few R&D factories tied up, but you will have several others free around same time, so this is not something Japanese needs to worry about, in my opinion.

About Kamis... My personal opinion is that fighters should be used as escort, not kamis when possible. Even if flying with completely green pilots, in obselete crates that are hacked from the sky by Hellcats and Corsairs at will, it is still worth doing as they tie the CAP up for those few minutes they take to die. Buying time and reducing CAP numbers (at least few will run low with ammo) while the kamis with decent bomb load (medium bombers, D4Y4s, Tobedo bombers, Ki-115s) head towards their targets.

Also, I got the idea somewhere that plane's durability affected the Kami damage? Was I wrong?

Edit;typos.

I admit that I'm somewhat in the dark on kamis. I only know, so far, that speed and payload are important for getting through CAP faster and making bigger booms. When I get to '44 in one of my PBEMs...I'll find out what they're really all about, I'm sure.


It is true what you say about having as many units already equipped with the B6N2a when the radar comes online, but you put it into words better than I could yesterday (which is part of why I left it out of my post). The other part is that I rate having the factories working on other things to be higher. I think I would rather put more research into the Grace, for example.

[Commander Stormwolf]

more accurate would be to make the B6N Jill (Tenzan) available earlier but give it a service rating of 5 (engine unreliability was a major reason why it was not made,
even though IJN was anticipating it to be ready (hence why B5N Kate (Kankoh) was being run at 0 per month historically on Dec 7 1941

IJN admirals were like.. "any day now nakajima.. fix those engines.. any day now.."


so they can be used for one sortie.. then they are stuck on the carriers

would be nice if those "sour apples" were also available for production

Ki-60
A7M1
J2M1
G5N1

[KenchiSulla]

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

[LoBaron]

Cannonfodder, have you ever seen him post ON topic anywhere, except the usual confused stereotypes? It does not make sense to argue with him because he is not interested in what the majority would percieve as a discussion, and he will simply take this post and copy/paste it in the next best thread remotely touching the topic of (Japanese) aircraft.

IMHO he is a troll, but he is too harmless for a mod to react, and actually he never really insulted anybody on the forums although he often has been insulted by others.

Live and let live I would say. [:)]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Also B6N2a has a heavy defensive machinegun, versus 7.7 mm on B6N2 model = higher gun rating.

Edit;typos.

just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

pls just don't answer him, that might just invite him to keep on posting...

[Commander Stormwolf]

just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

Yep. And historically a number of F4F learned about the betty's rear 20mm the hard way.

Definitely japanese rear gunners are less effective than historical, though increasing rear gunners effectiveness overall would make the allied 4E defensive fire even more overpowered

[Commander Stormwolf]

interesting experimental note with the editor, i once made a modified Ki-45 Nick (Toryu) with the rear gunner whipping around a handheld 20mm Type-99-1 - result: plenty of attacking fighters damaged but none destroyed in the animation, though probably lead to many ops losses

(edit, this was after increasing the effect/pen value of full size 20mm (like type-99 and hispano)to 5/3 and mini 20mm (like Shvak and Ho-5) remaining at 4/3 - in the same mod, .50 browning was 2/2, Ho-103 was 3/1, and all 7.7mm were 1/1 - standardized range for all AC armament at 500m, making the browning hit more often but less hard, and making the Ho-103 do well against soft-skinned AC but poorly against armor) - also used a standardized accuracy formula based on muzzle velocity and ammo capacity

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

pls just don't answer him, that might just invite him to keep on posting...

The green button helps as long as no one quotes him

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

pls just don't answer him, that might just invite him to keep on posting...

The green button helps as long as no one quotes him

+1

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Also B6N2a has a heavy defensive machinegun, versus 7.7 mm on B6N2 model = higher gun rating.

Edit;typos.

just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

I'm not sure that the 7.7mm can even PENETRATE aluminium. [:D][:D][:D]

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Also B6N2a has a heavy defensive machinegun, versus 7.7 mm on B6N2 model = higher gun rating.

Edit;typos.

just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

I'm not sure that the 7.7mm can even PENETRATE aluminium. [:D][:D][:D]

During 600+ turns i played in my PBEM i must confirm Castor Troy words.
I never seen japanise bomber shotting down allied fighter. Few times i saw bomber damaging enemy fighters but allied fighters are durable so few second later the same fighter was destroying bomber. From time to time i also see that defensive fire force fighters to cancel attack but i can count those times on one hand fingers.

[pacificbetta]

ORIGINAL: koniu

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: castor troy





just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

I'm not sure that the 7.7mm can even PENETRATE aluminium. [:D][:D][:D]

During 600+ turns i played in my PBEM i must confirm Castor Troy words.
I never seen japanise bomber shotting down allied fighter. Few times i saw bomber damaging enemy fighters but allied fighters are durable so few second later the same fighter was destroying bomber. From time to time i also see that defensive fire force fighters to cancel attack but i can count those times on one hand fingers.

You are more successful than me. I have yet to hit the count limit on my 1 finger hand [:D]