Noob question on Notional Units (RaW)

[Joseignacio]

Hello, although I believe that (he) was wrong, I kind of remember a guy telling me (or writing on a Forum) that if you invade a hex and at the same time paradrop you have to fight "two notionals" (I guess totally wrong) or twice the notional (double value because of th two stances of the attack).

I am kind of ashamed to ask this, since I am almost positive this is not correct and it's a newbie question, but it could have relevance in yesterday's game session: Do you get any advantage of this kind when invasion and paradrop happen in the same hex at the same time?

Thx in advance.

[Red Prince]

Pulled out my rules book, and I'm looking it up, but my gut instinct is that he is right -- Peter will know better than I do, but I'll try to find out for you.
-----
Edit: I can tell you before looking it up that each invading unit creates a notional unit you have to fight, so . . .

[Joseignacio]

Invading does create a notional. Paradropping does too. The matter is: if you invade AND paradrop the same hex you get two notionals or one doubled or just a normal non modified notional?

[Red Prince]

From RAW 11.14 Invasions
...
Each unit which invades counts as 1 land move. Each invasion counts as 1 land attack.
...
Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in
addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the same
nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the
hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the
same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the
hex.

From RAW 11.15 Paradrops
...
Each unit which paradrops counts as 1 air mission and 1 land move.
Each paradrop counts as 1 land combat.
...
Like invasions, each hex you paradrop into defends with a notional land
unit in addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit has 1
combat factor, modified like invasions (see 11.14). The rules applying to
notional units during invasions also apply to notional units in paradrops.
-----
I don't see anything that indicates that only one or the other applies, so both must. Since each unit that paradrops or invades counts as a single attack, each creates a single notional unit in the defending hex. Your friend is correct.

If you want, I can post the rules regarding how a notional is caculated.

[Joseignacio]

NO, thx.. I knew those rules.

It's true the rules don't specify, the matter is the interpretation. Most in my group understand this as "since there is only one attack in the hex, you only get 1 notional with a paradrop, OR an invasion OR with both, but there is only ONE notional per hex.

[michaelbaldur]

there is only 1 notional ...

but invading and para dropping units are part of the same combat

[Joseignacio]

Yes, and this doesn't affect the value of the notional (like x2)?

[michaelbaldur]

in the rules it is clear that there is only:

a notional land unit

and if the rules allowed for more. then there should be rules, so you could decline on or the other (as para drop notional is always smaller, but gives the same bonus.)

[LiquidSky]

There is only ONE notional unit. What you are doing is calculating the value of that unit. For each invading/paratrooping unit, add one to THE NOTIONAL unit.

Edit: Note the defender has the option of not including the notional.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

There is only ONE notional unit. What you are doing is calculating the value of that unit. For each invading/paratrooping unit, add one to THE NOTIONAL unit.

Edit: Note the defender has the option of not including the notional.

you are wrong. you only add anything for invading units, invading from low sections

For each invading/paratrooping unit, add one to THE NOTIONAL unit.

dont know were you have got this rule from

[Shannon V. OKeets]

In MWIF there is at most one notional unit in a land attack. If the hex is being attacked by sea, air, and land, there is still only 1 notional unit. The value of that unit does not depend on whether there are paratroop units and units invading from the sea. Instead it depends on the hex characteristics and the present of friendly units in the hex or in adjacent hexes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here's code for calculating the value of a notional unit. N is the ultimate value. There are rules for incrementing (Inc) it, decrementing it (Dec), and at the end doubling it for terrain.

---
// ****************************************************************************
function TMap.NotionalFactors(const Column, Row: Integer;
const AddingMovingStack: Boolean = False): Byte;
var
MapSta: TMapStack;
N: Smallint;
HS: THexsideRange;
Hex: TSmallPoint;
S: TUnitStack;
C: TGovernedArea;
HC: TMinorCountry;
MSIndx: Integer;
MSUni: TUnit;
MStckIndx: Integer;
MStckUni: TUnit;
F1stStUIndx: Integer;
F1stStUni: TUnit;
FoundStUni: TUnit;
F1stMapStkIndx: Integer;
F1stMapStk: TUnit;
FoundMapStk: TUnit;

function Found(var U: TUnit): Boolean;
begin
Result := (U is TLandUnit) and
(U.Side = HC.Side) and
(TLandUnit(U).Size > lsDivision) and
(U.UnitType <> utTerritorial) and
(((HS + 3) mod 6) in U.HasZOCInto);
end;

function NotSurprising(var U: TUnit): Boolean;
begin
Result := not (U.HomeCountry in HC.SurprisedBy);
end;

function IsEnemy(var U: TUnit): Boolean;
begin
Result := (not U.Flying) and
(not U.Invading) and
(U.Side <> HC.Side) and
((not (Game.Phase in [pInvasion, pParadrop])) or
(not U.OnTheMove));
end;

procedure DoAdd(var U: TUnit);
begin
S.Add(U);
end;

begin
// ****************************************************************************
// TMap.NotionalFactors.
// ****************************************************************************
if AddingMovingStack then
begin
S := TUnitStack.Create;
MapSta := MapStacks[Column, Row];
MapSta.CopyTo(S);

MSIndx := 0;

while MSIndx < MovingStack.Count do
begin
MSUni := TUnit(MovingStack.Item[MSIndx]);
DoAdd(MSUni);
Inc(MSIndx);
end;
end
else S := MapStacks[Column, Row];

try
HC := HexControl[Column, Row];
F1stStUIndx := 0;
FoundStUni := nil;

while F1stStUIndx < S.Count do
begin
F1stStUni := TUnit(S.Item[F1stStUIndx]);

if IsEnemy(F1stStUni) then
begin
FoundStUni := F1stStUni;
Break;
end;

Inc(F1stStUIndx);
end;

if FoundStUni <> nil then Result := 0
else
begin
N := 1;

if City[Column, Row] <> cyNone then Inc(N);

HC := NotionalCountry(Column, Row);
C := Self.HexHomeCountryOrTerritoryCommonwealth[Column, Row];

if (C is TMajorCountry) and (HC = C) then Inc(N);

if not NotionalInSupply(Column, Row) then Dec(N);

UFSide := HC.Side;

if not S.HasUnit(UFilterLandUnitSide) then
begin
for HS := 0 to 5 do
begin
if AdjacentHexLegal(Column, Row, HS, Hex) then
begin
F1stMapStkIndx := 0;
FoundMapStk := nil;

while F1stMapStkIndx < MapStacks[Hex.X, Hex.Y].Count do
begin
F1stMapStk := TUnit(MapStacks[Hex.X, Hex.Y].Item[F1stMapStkIndx]);

if Found(F1stMapStk) then
begin
FoundMapStk := F1stMapStk;
Break;
end;

Inc(F1stMapStkIndx);
end;

if FoundMapStk <> nil then
begin
Inc(N);
Break;
end;
end;
end; // End of HS loop.
end; // ENd of not S.HasUnit(UFilterLandUnitSide).

F1stStUIndx := 0;
FoundStUni := nil;

while F1stStUIndx < S.Count do
begin
F1stStUni := TUnit(S.Item[F1stStUIndx]);

if NotSurprising(F1stStUni) then
begin
FoundStUni := F1stStUni;
Break;
end;

Inc(F1stStUIndx);
end;

if (S.HasAllUnit(UFilterInvadingOrInMovingStack) and
(FoundStUni = nil)) or
S.SurprisedStack(S, HC.Side) then
Dec(N);

MStckIndx := 0;

while MStckIndx < S.Count do
begin
MStckUni := TUnit(S.Item[MStckIndx]);

if MStckUni.SeaInvading or
((Game.Phase = pInvasion) and
MStckUni.OnTheMove) then
Inc(N, ShoreBombardmentModifier[Self.HexWeather[Column, Row],
MStckUni.TransportingUnit.Section]);

Inc(MStckIndx);
end;

if Self.WeatherTerrain[Column, Row] in
[teSwamp, teMountain, teDesertMountain] then
N := N * 2;

Result := Max(0, N);
end;

finally
if AddingMovingStack then S.Free;
end;
end;

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In MWIF there is at most one notional unit in a land attack. If the hex is being attacked by sea, air, and land, there is still only 1 notional unit. The value of that unit does not depend on whether there are paratroop units and units invading from the sea. Instead it depends on the hex characteristics and the present of friendly units in the hex or in adjacent hexes.

Thx, Steve.

We use to play it this way, but I heard Liquidsky view several times. IMO, the wording of the RAW looks more like what MichaelBaldur says, although it's not crystal clear.

I made this question later yesterday in the mail list and they told me it is intended to be in a new set of clarifications. It will state that there is only one notional of value 1 unmodified initially by sending PARA and MAR or both, later modified only by the factors in the table at RAW: position at sea, climate, zoc, city, ...

[Extraneous]

For the record I agree with Joseignacio only one notional unit not two.


For those not having a copy of the rules here are the modifiers for notational units (see 11.14 Invasions).

The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
• +1 if it is a city hex;
• +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
• +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
• + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
• -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
• -1 if surprised (see 15.).

I believe the problem paragraph is the one that follows.

11.15 Paradrops

Paradropping units have no ZOC into the target hex until it is empty of enemy units (including notional units). They have no ZOC into adjacent hexes for the rest of the impulse. Thereafter, they have a normal ZOC.

After reviewing the rules I wanted to wait for Red Prince to contact Peter on this.

[Edfactor]

Only 1 notional unit.
There is only 1 attack, not 2 - each hex attacked counts as an attack, they are all resolved during the same (and only) combat phase during that impulse.
Each hex invaded or para dropped on (or both) will defend with one notional unit.

Paras are nice for invasions because they give you a +1 DRM, and the notional is always considered flipped so you get a net +2 to the invasion that way.

[Sewerlobster]

It is always wargaming interesting to see how the smallest thing or two makes confusion:

"Like invasions, each hex you paradrop into defends with a notional land
unit in addition to any actual land unit in the hex."

This certainly could be read to mean that there is a second notional unit. and when you pair it with "Paradropping... (including notional units)...", the word units adds weight to that point of view. It should probably say, "...(including a notional unit)..."

[Jimm]

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

It is always wargaming interesting to see how the smallest thing or two makes confusion:

"Like invasions, each hex you paradrop into defends with a notional land
unit in addition to any actual land unit in the hex."

This certainly could be read to mean that there is a second notional unit. and when you pair it with "Paradropping... (including notional units)...", the word units adds weight to that point of view. It should probably say, "...(including a notional unit)..."

That was how I read it too.

The moral of the story, either way, is that there is no shame in asking a rule question about this game. Whether or not you get a straight answer or not is another matter...

[Centuur]

The nice thing about MWIF is, that you don't have to ask those questions anymore. It's all coded, so that's how it is... The rule lawyers will lose their jobs... [:D]

[Joseignacio]

Yes, it's all ruled, according to the Supreme Judge Steve. [:)]

[Extraneous]

If Steve gets it wrong then it's the Beta Test teams fault for not bringing it to his attention.