Planet Outposts

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

A slight rep hit is actually one of the proposals I've put forth on the issue, along with an empire policy to make armed mining stations shoot at incoming colony ships.

This makes more sense to me than designing in a whole new system of outposts. Maybe make an empire policy for when to open fire (full automatic/advise/never).

[hal9000]

I guess I’m arriving late to the discussion, but I’ve put some thoughts on the whole messy borders, colony on mining stations and claim things issue and wanted to share them with you.

First I’m in favour of a sphere of influence around your colonies, which would grow with the culture or population of your colony, starting with just the system or planet and expanding so that a high culture world would also include some stars in the neighbourhood.
Other empires would suffer diplo penalties for colonizing or building stations in that sphere not only with the owner but also some ‘you do not respect other empires borders’ penalty with all other empires. Maybe the aggressor would also get diplo bonuses with empires that don’t like the owner, or with the more aggressive races à la ‘I like your style.

Additionally I’d be for a casus belli system, so you can declare war on empires without getting diplomatic or reputation penalties if that empire gave you a reason for war like violating your sphere of influence etc.

I’d also like to have a distance penalty. Colonies that are too far away from the rest of your empire should have penalties on growth and taxes up to a point where they won’t be profitable unless you found some colonies in between.There could also be a distance penalty on mining stations, having increasing maintenance costs with distance.

As for colonizing planets with a foreign mining station already on it, I think you should either trade for the planet or have to take it by force with its accommodating diplo and reputation penalties. Additionally when taking the planet by force the colony ship could need a military escort.

I’m also in a favour for claiming things, but I think you should only be able to claim a few things at a time without getting the other empires upset and you should need to enforce your claim with your military. There could also be diplo penalties if you claim things at other empires borders or far away from your own borders. Claiming things could be a nice way of provoking conflicts between neighbouring empires and I also like the idea of empires fighting over a claim of a debris field.

[Simulation01]

hal9000,

I welcome you into the borders and outposts ( of some sort ) faction.  I'm assigning you to the USS Give a Damn.  She is a proud ship and is needed on the front lines.  'Those that like the status quo' faction have us at a disadvantage since they presently hold sway in the Distant Worlds Quadrant.  With your help I'm sure we will now have enough military and political weight to seek an audience with the 'Developers' Empire.  They are key to turning the tide in this war!  Erik the valiant captains their flagship.... the Battleship 'Matrix Games'.  If they were to intervene that ship would be at the vanguard of their fleet.  Hold fast El Capitan!

Sincerely,

Simulation01
Borders and Outposts Committee


"Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred."      ~Alfred, Lord Tennyson

[Sabin Stargem]

I would also like to see borders & casus belli in Distant Worlds.  They will help with balancing the game and adding flavor to the way the empires interact.

[Igard]

I can't believe I haven't read this thread before now. It's quite a discussion going on and I'm a little bit surprised by the different views. Here's what I think after quickly reading over most of the comments;

Mining stations should not be dismantled by other empires when they move their colony ship in on a planet. If a mining station is present, then there should be a diplomatic request to buy the mining station for colonization, or military force can be used also.

I think there should be a small area of influence around colonies, but not dependant on technology, culture or population. It will be a constant border of influence which affects all other empire colonies, but not mining stations. The mining stations within the area of influence will appear on the diplomacy trade screen for exchange in negotiations.

The area of influence around a colony could be set at game start up via a slider. 0.25 sector, 0.5 sector, 0.75 sector and 1.0 sector distance from any colony. Something around those figures anyway.

How the area of influence would deter other empires from 'moving in';

Colonization within another empire's border will be determined by current relations with that empire.

An empire with a good relationship with the other empire will colonise within the border with no difficulty.

An empire with a poor relationship with the empire will have difficulties colonising with that border. Colonisation may fail depending on how bad the relations are. Who wants to live next door to an enemy?

If relations worsen after the colony has been established, then growth will take a big hit. Colonists should start to leave and eventually the colony will be abandoned. If military forces are present still on the planet, then the system can be 'held', but will of course be a drain on the economy.

[forsaken1111]

That would be the 'magic wall' border system which I really hope they never put in.

[BigWolfChris]

** Note, not had a chance to completely read through, so may have already been covered **

You know, I'm starting to get used to this no-borders gameplay... the only reason I'm against it (and this won't change without a change in gameplay) is due to the fact my war is simply taking my largest fleets and hitting their home systems as soon as war is declared... after that the AI is simply done as the non-home systems will rarely have a high enough population to keep the AI in contention

And since the AI spreads the defences around their various systems, the only tough part is the large space port above the homeworld

As for outposts, I think mining stations should automatically make the planet an outpost (because, technically outposts are lightly populated areas for strategic or resource reasons, which mining, defensive and monitoring stations can fit into perfectly)
So, the initial construction would have only the crew, but over time the population may increase (ie. families, new workers, etc)... maybe increasing rate of resource gathering (only gameplay aspect to a pop increase I can think of atm)
If conditions are right, and you have the right techs, it could even spawn into an actual colony (but would take quite some time and still have a lower initial population than an actual colony)

As for colonizing planets with other empire stations and outposts already on them
They must be handed over diplomatically or through a military attack, and there needs to be severe repercussions to colonizing or building outposts/stations inside another empires systems (the AI shouldn't do it fullstop unless it's apart of an attack plan)
Also, to take a page out of another games rulebook, there could also be a colonization treaty that allows two empires (ideally allies) to open up certain worlds for the other to use for mining outposts or colonies

One thing I like about DW is there isn't that much of a phase of "colony spamming" that you find in every other space game, because you'll find yourself bankqrupt if you do

[Igard]

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

That would be the 'magic wall' border system which I really hope they never put in.

I find that a bit insulting. You make it sound like colonies will be defended by pixies amd fairies and little goblins. What I'm suggesting is an area of 'unrest' where friendly aliens will feel comfortable living and hostile aliens will feel uneasy living so close to an enemy. You can still send your colony ships, but there's an element of risk colonising so close to another empire.

If there were a slider on the galaxy set up screen, then you could even turn it off I suppose.

If I could make a suggestion, forsaken1111. Not all of us are going to agree on what would work best. It's up to Elliot to decide what's going into the game and we can only offer our suggestions, as he asked us to. Once you've had your say, you should respect others opinions and only offer critisism if it's constructive and conducive to the debate.

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: Igard
If I could make a suggestion, forsaken1111. Not all of us are going to agree on what would work best. It's up to Elliot to decide what's going into the game and we can only offer our suggestions, as he asked us to. Once you've had your say, you should respect others opinions and only offer critisism if it's constructive and conducive to the debate.

I never claimed to speak for the majority, I just said I hope they do not implement this system. If you took offense, I apologize as none was intended.

I am strongly against a border/territory system as you described because I find it unrealistic. Just because your empire dislikes evil space bugs (as an example) doesn't mean their citizens wouldn't want to live there. In fact they might take perverse pleasure in settling a rock you wanted. I'm all for political repercussions, but you are making generalizations about who would want to live where just because of some magical cultural force which emanates from the colonies, and I am against it.

I know that the developers make the final decision, I am not an ignorant child. There have been quite a few systems put forth here that would work just fine without a needlessly complex and unrealistic magical cultural border.

Yes, I made it sound like the colonies are being defended by pixies and fairies because that is what you proposed. While I respect your opinion and your right to voice it, I disagree with you.

[Igard]

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111
I never claimed to speak for the majority, I just said I hope they do not implement this system. If you took offense, I apologize as none was intended.

Ok, mate. We're cool. [8D]

Like I said, we can't all agree with every system that's being suggested here. I take your point about not all aliens being averse to living next to a hostile empire, I just see the relationship +/- system as a good place to determine that. A colony on the border of a hostile empire would be first in the firing line if a war broke out so some unrest could be simulated.

To back up your point, there are of course some examples from Star Trek. You could take the Maquis as an example of a people who want to live on the Cardassian border and are happy there and will not allow the Federation to give their homes to the Carddies. There was also an episode of TNG where a colony of Native Americans were happy to stay in there homes and refused to leave, even as the Cardassians moved in next door.

I don't think I'm making generalistions nor am I proposing a magical barrier. I probably should have gone into more detail about the parameters that determine whether or not a race could colonise though.

Racial traits like aggression and friendliness could play a part in calculating whether or not the race will colonise in the area. So an aggressive race would have more success than a passive one, because their colonists have no fear of living on the border of another empire. A passive race that is also unfriendly may not have such luck colonising, because their colonists don't like anyone else and they don't have the aggressive nature to succeed in such circumstances.

So it's not a magical wall. It simulates an area of influence around a colony that has a realistic effect on the minds of other empire's colonists.

[Sabin Stargem]

I would like to see the concept of borders added to the game, both hard and soft. This is in part to make the game feel less like a random mish-mash of activity, where everyone is doing anything, regardless of how awkward it actually would be in real life. While having freedom of movement is important, I think giving weight to how people accomplish this would be good. It certainly would help with making diplomacy more important and vibrant, I feel.

[diablo1]

ORIGINAL: Igard

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

That would be the 'magic wall' border system which I really hope they never put in.

I find that a bit insulting. You make it sound like colonies will be defended by pixies amd fairies and little goblins. What I'm suggesting is an area of 'unrest' where friendly aliens will feel comfortable living and hostile aliens will feel uneasy living so close to an enemy. You can still send your colony ships, but there's an element of risk colonising so close to another empire.

If there were a slider on the galaxy set up screen, then you could even turn it off I suppose.

If I could make a suggestion, forsaken1111. Not all of us are going to agree on what would work best. It's up to Elliot to decide what's going into the game and we can only offer our suggestions, as he asked us to. Once you've had your say, you should respect others opinions and only offer critisism if it's constructive and conducive to the debate.

Very good point and post Igard. That forsaken1111 dude is acting like he owns this forum.

Everyone has the right to post about what they like or don't like in a game even if it means including what other games offer so the developer can see there are other avenues of approach that have worked before.

I like X3:Universe especially Terran, but, that doesn't mean I'm not or wasn't interested in this one. I just point out things I've seen in X3 that apparantly aren't present or aren't working in this one like fuel delivery and aggressive combat AI both of which X3 does very well.

So he needs to get off his trolling I own this forum boat and settle down.

[PDiFolco]

diablo1 COULD YOU PLEASE SHUT UP and go play X3 instead ?? Thanks.

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

diablo1 COULD YOU PLEASE SHUT UP and go play X3 instead ?? Thanks.

This.

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: Igard

Ok, mate. We're cool. [8D]

I understand your suggestion a bit better now and I'm not quite as opposed, but I still really like how messy DW is currently. It feels like barely controlled chaos, and I think the concerns we have could be remedied with just a few small tweaks rather than a whole new system bolted on.

[feygan]

Since there has been probably 4-5 ideas regarding this issue now put out in this thread. I'm just curious if any of the dev team have seen this and their thoughts regarding the subject of the game as it is now (there is no real territory orther than that which you plant a dirty great cap ship above and arm all photon torpedoes), and the other side of which being that colonies/empires can project a sphere of influence of sorts that either prevents or restricts free development from other empire nations.

Do they intend things to stay the same or will there be some kind of territory control in a future patch/expansion?

[Igard]

Feygan, Elliot posted something near the bottom of page 1 about looking further into it and how some sort of border or territory system would be possible.

Forsaken1111, I tend to think that we probably will see small tweaks to the game rather than a big change like I'm suggesting. However it doesnt' need to be game changing for everyone. If a slider is added to the start up screens with an option to disable it, then you could still play the game just the same.

Diablo1, Forsaken1111 made a short post about my suggestion which I misunderstood as being harsh. We've all done it and he responded like a gentleman. I agree that you need to give it a rest with the X3 spamming and it is spamming. I get it that you like that game, but some folks don't want to hear about it all the time.

[forsaken1111]

It's far too easy to accidentally come across as harsh or confrontational when your only medium is text. It's remarkable how much tone of voice and body language play into communication, and we often forget about them being absent online.

I'm glad you didn't take it too personally Igard because I really didn't mean anything by it. [:)]

[lancer]

G'day,

With regards to borders and outposts it's worth taking a moment to look a few steps ahead and be careful that you don't get what you wish for.

While I'm in the 'I'm-happy-with-the-way-it-is' camp, I'm open to different ideas.

However all the posts I've seen in this thread that are putting the case for change are all - from what I can see - doing so from the point of view of how it will improve their situation in the game. Eg. Keep others from stealing potential colony sites that they covert.

This is O.K in itself but consider it from the a different point of view. In any game you are only one of say a dozen races inhabiting the same galactic real-estate.

Having defined borders or 'areas of influence' backed up by outposts may well let you keep and colonise a few choice worlds at times. But what about the fact that there are eleven, for example, other races out there attempting to do the same as you.

I'd imagine that you'd very quickly find that the number of worlds available to colonise that don't have somebody elses outpost already on them or which are within somebody elses borders would be very few indeed.

Any advantage that you may gain for yourself would be heavily offset by the hindrances that you would create for your own expansion purely due to the fact that there is only one of you versus ten or more opposing races that are all busily gobbling up the available real estate by planting outposts hither and yon and extending borders.

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Lancer

[hal9000]

ORIGINAL: lancer

G'day,

With regards to borders and outposts it's worth taking a moment to look a few steps ahead and be careful that you don't get what you wish for.

While I'm in the 'I'm-happy-with-the-way-it-is' camp, I'm open to different ideas.

However all the posts I've seen in this thread that are putting the case for change are all - from what I can see - doing so from the point of view of how it will improve their situation in the game. Eg. Keep others from stealing potential colony sites that they covert.

This is O.K in itself but consider it from the a different point of view. In any game you are only one of say a dozen races inhabiting the same galactic real-estate.

Having defined borders or 'areas of influence' backed up by outposts may well let you keep and colonise a few choice worlds at times. But what about the fact that there are eleven, for example, other races out there attempting to do the same as you.

I'd imagine that you'd very quickly find that the number of worlds available to colonise that don't have somebody elses outpost already on them or which are within somebody elses borders would be very few indeed.

Any advantage that you may gain for yourself would be heavily offset by the hindrances that you would create for your own expansion purely due to the fact that there is only one of you versus ten or more opposing races that are all busily gobbling up the available real estate by planting outposts hither and yon and extending borders.

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Lancer

I don't believe claims will ever make into the game. Being able to claim a thing or two at the same time would be nice though.
But I really hope that soft borders and some disincentive to colonize systems far away will be implemented, I just can't get along with the late game messy galaxies.