Combined Fleet Usage: AVs

[Q-Ball]

The challenge of playing Japan is that you don't get alot of hulls, or certainly not as many as the Allies. You have to maximize usage, and find a mission for all the hulls you do get.

One category is the AVs, specifically the Kamikawa Maru and Sanyo-Maru classes that have integrated Airgroups. What is the best mission for these ships?

1. PARKED IN PORT: Traditional AV role (and the only real one for the Allied ships), park them in port to add AV support; kind of a floating base force unit
2. ASW: Paired in important convoys, for local ASW work
3. SCOUTING: I am thinking scouting the sealanes between Australia and India, for example, plugging gaps in air search
4. PICKETS: Early-warning of impending invasions (kinda hazardous though)

As Japan, I don't convert anything to new AVs, but you should use the ones you get. What do you guys do?

[CapAndGown]

You can disband them into dot bases, or other bases where there is not additional units, and fly ASW patrols there. They don't just add aviation support to bases that otherwise have support. They can be their own base. Kind of makes me wish the Spratly Islands were included so I could run ASW patrols out in the middle of the South China Sea.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


As Japan, I don't convert anything to new AVs, but you should use the ones you get. What do you guys do?

What's your thinking on this? As you mention, AV missions can be hazardous so you will lose some and there are few replacements coming if you do no convert.

[Dili]

AV's should only be employed when stopped.

[String]

given the scarcity of aviation support I find these ships very useful in their intended role, being disbanded in a port or a dot base and providing AV support for float planes.

[Rainer79]

True. IMO they are also useful for early-war invasion support with their generally decent artillery.

[topeverest]

While I am not far enough along to have played an enire campaign in ae, the way I play the jap navy will cause me to convert surviving AV types to CVL. I find the need to have the extra combat air capable assets in the defense of the empire. I view the American and British CV's as the primary enemy. Without them operational, the smaller Jap surface fleet and air forces can and will thwart invasions or at a minimum slow them down enough for a stalemate win (Speaking on experience from WITP).

To reference another thread, as the jap player after the initiatve switch, I am looking for that allied invasion attempt where I can expend massed assets with the best chance of the most damage to the enemy. It plays out differently every game, but that is why I will convert AV's and train the pilots in those planes. I do realize there is a benefit lost (which I cannot measure) on SP ASW effectiveness.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

While I am not far enough along to have played an enire campaign in ae, the way I play the jap navy will cause me to convert surviving AV types to CVL. I find the need to have the extra combat air capable assets in the defense of the empire. I view the American and British CV's as the primary enemy. Without them operational, the smaller Jap surface fleet and air forces can and will thwart invasions or at a minimum slow them down enough for a stalemate win (Speaking on experience from WITP).

To reference another thread, as the jap player after the initiatve switch, I am looking for that allied invasion attempt where I can expend massed assets with the best chance of the most damage to the enemy. It plays out differently every game, but that is why I will convert AV's and train the pilots in those planes. I do realize there is a benefit lost (which I cannot measure) on SP ASW effectiveness.

I don't think AVs convert to CVLs, only CS's convert.

[Mark Weston]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
As Japan, I don't convert anything to new AVs, but you should use the ones you get. What do you guys do?

Regarding this point, I'm struggling to imagine a situation with Japan's xAK fleet where - say - four medium sized hulls is the difference between life and death. Given the value of the AVs and the risk inherent in some of the missions you've outlined, I'd say converting a few more seems like a sensible option. In my case I'm converting four in December 41 and would certainly consider more in the name of always having an AV available nearby when you decide you need one.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
As Japan, I don't convert anything to new AVs, but you should use the ones you get. What do you guys do?

Regarding this point, I'm struggling to imagine a situation with Japan's xAK fleet where - say - four medium sized hulls is the difference between life and death. Given the value of the AVs and the risk inherent in some of the missions you've outlined, I'd say converting a few more seems like a sensible option. In my case I'm converting four in December 41 and would certainly consider more in the name of always having an AV available nearby when you decide you need one.

The converted AVs are only good for additional base support. I suppose that has it's use, but not trememdous. It doesn't hurt to convert a couple.

I am more wondering about the AVs with the integrated air groups; Kamikawa and Sanyo-Maru. THOSE are the ships it is more difficult to find a role for (other than just parking them like another AV).

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Well I often attach them into important convoys to give additional ASW protection.

[Dili]

Gamey!

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Gamey!

How so ?

[Dili]

Well they could only operate stopped. It's is impossible to use them as ASW escort.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well they could only operate stopped. It's is impossible to use them as ASW escort.

I don't think this is totally accurate. At least some japanese AV ships had catapults, and they were used to cover convoys.

For example Kamikawa Maru:

6 December 1941:
Kota Bharu, Malaya. At 1030, a flight of three Lockheed "Hudson" light bomber patrol planes of No. 1 RAAF Squadron takes off on a reconnaissance flight over the South China Sea.

185 miles E of Kota Bharu. About noon, the crew of one of the Hudsons spots three Japanese ships steaming west. Fifteen minutes later, the same crew spots and reports sighting the main IJN convoy consisting of a battleship, five cruisers, seven destroyers and 22 transports.

KAMIKAWA MARU launches a Pete floatplane to intercept the Hudson, but it is spotted and the Hudson takes cover in the clouds.

7 December 1941:
Off Malaya. At 0300, Admiral Ozawa Jisaburo orders patrols in the area between the convoy and Malaya. The convoy is then 100 nautical miles off Kota Bharu. There is heavy rain and zero visibility. The Southern Expeditionary Fleet has two seaplane carriers, KAMIKAWA MARU with 14 E13A1 Jakes and F1M2 Petes and SAGARA MARU with six F1M2s and two E8N2 Daves. Both ships catapult off 11 F1M2 and six E13A1, but the planes report nothing.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Kamikawa%20Maru_t.htm

[Mark Weston]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The converted AVs are only good for additional base support. I suppose that has it's use, but not trememdous. It doesn't hurt to convert a couple.

I am more wondering about the AVs with the integrated air groups; Kamikawa and Sanyo-Maru. THOSE are the ships it is more difficult to find a role for (other than just parking them like another AV).

In my - I admit limited - experience being able to put AV aviation support into a forward base at short notice to get Mavis or Jake search up and running seems very useful. Also, Japan starts the game with a number of resizable FP groups lying around which you can marry up with the new AVs. Or you could just steal one from a cruiser.

[Mark Weston]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well they could only operate stopped. It's is impossible to use them as ASW escort.

Don't be daft. So the AV has to stop for a few minutes every couple of hours to launch or recover aircraft. You really think it's impossible to manage a convoy's operations around that necessity? I don't know if the Japanese did use AVs or CSs for ASW, but this is certainly not a reason to say it was impossible, or that it's gamey in the context of AE.

[Mynok]

He's a troll in case you haven't figured that out yet. Use the green button.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

I don't know if the Japanese did use AVs or CSs for ASW, but this is certainly not a reason to say it was impossible, or that it's gamey in the context of AE.

Yes they did use AVs for ASW. Here is one example, seaplane tender Kimikawa Maru.

1 January 1942:
KIMIKAWA MARU is reassigned directly to the Fifth Fleet. Operating out of Ominato, she conducts anti-submarine patrols and Soviet shipping surveillance along the Kurile Islands chain to Kamchatka thru the Sea of Okhotsk. Depending on weather, she is at sea 14 to 16 days.


Seaplane tender were also used for recon.


22-27 February 1942:
Departs Ominato. KIMIKAWA MARU’s E13A1 floatplanes conduct several photo-reconnaissance flights over the Soviet Union’s Ust-Bolsheretsk harbor, Kamchatka Peninsula.

11 May 1942:
150 n. miles S of Kiska. KIMIKAWA MARU, accompanied by KISO, launches floatplanes for a photo-reconnaissance of Adak and Kiska. The Adak mission is carried out between 1225–1330 and is successful, but Kiska is obscured by weather.


There is plenty of examples were japanese seaplane tenders operated at sea to protect convoys (CAP or ASW), recon or even bombing airfield. One more example, this time Sanuki Maru

8-11 April 1942:
Operates at sea off Bacolod, Negros, Panay, Bohol Is and Cebu.

9-10 April 1942:
Lt (j.g.) Robert B. Kelly's USS PT-34 is bombed, strafed, set afire and forced ashore at Cauit Island, Cebu by four Japanese floatplanes, probably F1M2 Petes from SANUKI MARU.

During the day, a Pete from SANUKI MARU engages a Curtiss P-40E "Warhawk"of the 3rd Pursuit Squadron operating from Del Monte, Mindanao. Neither plane is lost in the ensuing combat.

Cebu, Philippines. SANUKI MARU covers the landings of the Kawaguchi Detachment's 35th Infantry Brigade HQ and the 124th Infantry Regiment with light cruiser KUMA, DesDiv 2's SAMIDARE and MURASAME and KIJI, gun boat BUSHO MARU and two sub-chasers.

12 April 1942:
SANUKI MARU launches four F1M2s to bomb the USAAF airfield at Del Monte. A P-35A "Guardsman", orbiting the air field, engages the Petes, while two P-40Es take off to intercept them. An F1M2 is shot down by one of the P-40s, but the other three F1M2s bomb the airfield. They wreck a B-17E and damage two others. At 1815, entes Cebu Port.

[Dili]

I don't think this is totally accurate. At least some Japanese AV ships had catapults, and they were used to cover convoys.

Yes you are right, i forgot some had catapults , but even for them it is a risk to recover aircraft.

Don't be daft. So the AV has to stop for a few minutes every couple of hours to launch or recover aircraft. You really think it's impossible to manage a convoy's operations around that necessity?

In game is not possible to simulate the increasing risks from submarines that occurred due to need of stopping. The inefficiency of AV in that kind of operations is clear when we see most of them converted to transport ships around 1943.