Solomon Islands Map

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norman42
And in the case of Solomon's Islands, with the conquest of Guadalcanal port you would conquest all of the Solomons? Including San Cristobal and other isles not connected via hexside to Guadalcanal?

Yes.
The game does not show the brigades & batallions and myriad of small units that do this job over the course of the months that the game turn represent, so they are symbolised this way.
Just like when you control Warsaw & Lotz, you gain control of all Poland.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

On the Pacific Map, Except for Australia and New Zealand who are CW Major Powers, there is no CW area that is not a Territory. Papua, New Britain, New Ireland, the Solomons, the Gilberts, etc... all are territories.

The way we've always played is a bit different. The only "Territory" (capital-T, conquerable in certain ways) that exist are the ones with a controlling major power designated in parentheses after the name. So the Carolines are a Territory you can conquer via taking Truk and Ponape; but the Palau group is not and you must either take each hex or take each port on the Bismarck Sea. WiF FE doesn't define boundaries for the island groups, so this is the only way I've known to solve control questions. So the Japanese can't get the islands in the Solomons in most cases, except on a hex-by-hex walk-over basis, because they can't usually get all the ports in the Coral Sea. So to make the Solomon Islands a special territory, conquerable at Guadalcanal, is a bit easier for the Japanese if they are interested in this area. Probably defining every island as part of a specific Territory will be good and bad for each side in different places; especially with the hexes on sea boundaries that are less likely to change control in WiF FE. We've played that any hex not part of a (MP) designated Territory is effectively it's own separate territory, which can be conquered by taking every port touching it's sea zone. I don't think I am the only person to play this way, so this change to the control mechanics in the South Pacific should be explained somewhere.

Here is another question - if you conquer a country, any "Territory" it controls that doesn't contain any units from either side goes neutral, Iceland being a standard example. The NEI in WiF FE is a complete country I believe, with every hex touching another one and reachable by a MAR starting in Batavia. Same for the Phillipines I believe. Now that this is no longer the case, this Gordian problem needs to be solved as Marcus suggested. The myriad islands not reachable by MARines should remain part of the NEI with control determined at Batavia, on initial conquest at least. Writing Island-name-here (NEI) on an island not connected to the rest could imply to players of WiF FE that these are now Territories.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

The Netherlands East Indies is a minor country consisting of all the 1939 NEI-controlled hexes in the Bay of Bengal, Bismark Sea, East Indian Ocean, South China Sea and Timor Sea. Its capital is Batavia.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: Froonp
On the Pacific Map, Except for Australia and New Zealand who are CW Major Powers, there is no CW area that is not a Territory. Papua, New Britain, New Ireland, the Solomons, the Gilberts, etc... all are territories.

The way we've always played is a bit different. The only "Territory" (capital-T, conquerable in certain ways) that exist are the ones with a controlling major power designated in parentheses after the name.

The only reason for the controling major power being designated in parentheses after the name is because the territory is situated in Sea Areas that are not controlled by a single Major Power. All Sea Area are controlled by a Major Power, and Territories who do not have a name in parentheses are controlled by that Major Power. Thus, the Caroline have (Ja) because they are both in a Japanese and in a CW Sea Area, so the (Ja) is necessary to knwo who controls the Carolines. The Solomon do not need (CW) written after the name, as the Solomon are in 2 Sea Areas that are CW already. That's just this. The Solomons are a Territory the same way the Caroline are.

Here is another question - if you conquer a country, any "Territory" it controls that doesn't contain any units from either side goes neutral, Iceland being a standard example. The NEI in WiF FE is a complete country I believe, with every hex touching another one and reachable by a MAR starting in Batavia. Same for the Phillipines I believe. Now that this is no longer the case, this Gordian problem needs to be solved as Marcus suggested. The myriad islands not reachable by MARines should remain part of the NEI with control determined at Batavia, on initial conquest at least. Writing Island-name-here (NEI) on an island not connected to the rest could imply to players of WiF FE that these are now Territories.

The reachable or not by MAR is irrelevant here, as the map changed. RAW needed that kind of rule because each hex did not have a proper owner in WiF FE. In MWiF, each hex has an owner, so this rule is no more necessary. Minor countries and Major Powers are defined on the map, hex per hex by the game, you no longer need to guess based on rules. Such rules that make island 2217 Japanese controlled if you follow RAW strictly, so it is a blessing that we do not need to abide them in the computer game.
That's why I had asked the question originaly to Harry. Is Truk a Territory, or is the Carolines a Territory conquered by conquering Truk & Ponape, and he answered the latter, so I don't see why this would not apply to the other island chains. This is consistent and logic. Having the Solomon conquered hex by hex and the Caroline conquered as a whole is not consistent and not logical. This is either one way, or the other.

RAW, 13.7.1
********************************
To conquer a territory, you must control every city and port in that territory. If it has no ports or cities, you need to control every hex instead.
********************************

This applies to all Pacific Island chains.
Look at the TEC also for a visual definition of a territory. It shows "Sardinia" as an example. Then look at how Sardinia is writte, and how the Carolines, the Palau, the Hawaiian, the Solomons, etc... are written. It also define how Minor Countries and Major Powers are written on the map.

********************************
You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in.
********************************

The later means that you are not obliged to conquer the cities that might be inland in a Territory surrounded by water.
There is no Territory on the WiF FE map that is likewise. There is only one Territory with a city by the way, this is Sardinia. I can't find another. This latter part of RAW could have been dropped.

[marcuswatney]

New Ireland problem (continued)
 
Continued from Post 85.
 
Ignoring PatiF, the US has four MAR corps (and two MAR DIVs), which means that to maintain the counterattack potential against Rabaul established in WiF FE, we need to provide a minimum of two hexes from which the MAR can attack Rabaul across all-sea hexsides (in support of a conventional land-attack from the southwest).
 
That is to say, while in WiF FE, US Marines had the choice of four hexes from which to attack Rabaul (South New Ireland, Bougainville, Woodlark. Goodenough - see Post 51), two of those are superfluous given the few MAR available to the US.
 
We can maintain the play-balance of WiF FE by twisting New Ireland so that it occupies four hexes in a straight line, starting at Kavieng and heading SE.
 
As for the offshore islands, it is probably sufficient to shift only Lihir (one hex SW) ... though it would be aesthetic to twist Bougainville and Buka a little in their hexes so they point more towards the new position of New Ireland.
 
 

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

New Ireland problem (continued)
 
Continued from Post 85.

Ignoring PatiF, the US has four MAR corps (and two MAR DIVs), which means that to maintain the counterattack potential against Rabaul established in WiF FE, we need to provide a minimum of two hexes from which the MAR can attack Rabaul across all-sea hexsides (in support of a conventional land-attack from the southwest).

That is to say, while in WiF FE, US Marines had the choice of four hexes from which to attack Rabaul (South New Ireland, Bougainville, Woodlark. Goodenough - see Post 51), two of those are superfluous given the few MAR available to the US.

We can maintain the play-balance of WiF FE by twisting New Ireland so that it occupies four hexes in a straight line, starting at Kavieng and heading SE.

As for the offshore islands, it is probably sufficient to shift only Lihir (one hex SW) ... though it would be aesthetic to twist Bougainville and Buka a little in their hexes so they point more towards the new position of New Ireland.

I disagree.
This is a problem with lots of places on the Pacific Map, we won't ba able to recreate exactly the way the were.
Attacking Rabaul the way you did will have to be done another way, that's it. Anyway, the Allied did not attack the way you describe. They invaded the western tip and crawled up the island. I do it this way too, always, with a supporting invasion maybe.

I don't want to try to make the MWiF map so that it recreates exactly all the possiblilities that existed on the WiF FE map, this is not always possible.

[marcuswatney]

New Ireland:
 
The incorrect topography around Rabaul is a serious issue that should not be swept under the carpet just because it is inconvenient to re-program.  You and Steve have rightly said, again and again, that the absolutely critical consideration is that MWiF must reflect WiF FE.  Here is a situation concerning a critical two-zone major port where something has gone very very wrong in the drafting of the map, with real effects on play.  Correcting it doesn't require new rules or any fudging ... just drawing the map accurately.
 
Historically, Rabaul was never captured (the advance through New Britain went no further than seizing the airbase at Talasea, on that little northern peninsula, on 6 March 1944), so we cannot conjecture exactly how an assault on Rabaul would have been staged had the Allies decided to go ahead.
 
Furthermore, none of us (me included) should push our preferred strategies and tactics on the design.  The fact that you habitually capture Rabaul without involving New Ireland does not alter the fact that others, equally experienced, do no doubt prefer to boost a conventional attack from the southwest by adding marines from the east (if only to gain the right to add in extra tactical air and shore bombardment).  Since that possibility is available in WiF FE, and since Rabaul is a critical hex in the game, that tactic needs to be also available in MWiF, if you and Steve are to stay true to your 'prime directive'.
 
What baffles me is how the New Ireland/New Britain relationship came to be drawn incorrectly in the first place, given that Rabaul is so famous (Heavens! In the 1985 map there was even a crossing arrow!) The channel between the two islands varies between 30km and 50km wide ... substantially less than the official width of a hex.
 
Given that the main market for this game are players of WiF FE, it makes no sense to irritate them by not correcting this flaw when such a wonderful amount of time and energy has been spent on every other aspect of the splendid map.

[brian brian]

Is Reykjavik currently a city? First it is a city, then it is no city, then it is? I forget. Is Sardinia written "Sardinia (It)" ? I think so.

OK, so in WiF FE, how do you conquer Nauru without putting a land unit on it? (If Nauru has a port, I forget right now, let's use the island 'Ocean' for example, or any single hex island inside the Solomons zone). You are saying it is part of an unnamed Territory, let's say the "Solomon Islands" Territory. But where does that Territory end? The hexes of the New Hebrides around Espiritu Santu would be part of it, for example, as would all of the hexes on the border of the Solomons zone. So to conquer the whole "Solomon Islands" Territory you need to control ports in a whole bunch of places in about 4-5 sea zones, because the hexes on the zone borders would be part of that Territory. How do you get the hex between Palau and Yap? Just by taking those two ports, without Truk or the other ports on the Bismarck?

So how do you decide which Territory a WiF FE hex is a part of? What about the all important hexes on zone boundaries?

The way we play, to get the single hexes in the Solomons, you need Truk, Ponape, Guadalcanal, Espiritu Santu, Tarawa, and Nukufetau, and I'm possibly forgetting one more. (Kanton?) Once you have all of those ports, you conquer all of the single hexes inside the Solomons zone from the CW, but not the hexes on the border, unless you control all the ports in the other sea zone too. This is because we treat each hex not defined as part of a Territory by the 'home country definition' rule as it's own separate Territory. Am I really the only person to play this way? I still don't think so.

All I'm saying is you should include something that highlights this in the documentation - "Each hex is now part of a defined Territory (a group of hexes without a capitol) or a minor country (which has a definite capitol) which can be conquered separately. The (Te) is designated in parentheses for any hex that is not clearly inside that Territory. Territories without ports can still be conquered by controlling every port in every sea zone touching a hex in that Territory." It's probably better to have them all part of a defined group, will clear up confusion I think, but we've never tried doing it that way.



As for keeping the MWiF map the same, that logic seems to be applied quite subjectively in this process. In other areas unrealistic changes are made 'to keep it the same as WiF FE'.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Is Reykjavik currently a city? First it is a city, then it is no city, then it is? I forget. Is Sardinia written "Sardinia (It)" ? I think so.

Reykjavik is a minor port.
Sardinia is written "Sardinia (It)" because it lies in a Sea Area that has no default controller names, and in a Sea Area that has Yugoslavia as the default controller named. I already explained that. The name of the controller in parenthesis has no relation to whether the Territory is a Territory or not.

OK, so in WiF FE, how do you conquer Nauru without putting a land unit on it? (If Nauru has a port, I forget right now, let's use the island 'Ocean' for example, or any single hex island inside the Solomons zone).

Nauru is a Territory controlled by the CW. It is a single hex Territory. It has no port.

You are saying it is part of an unnamed Territory, let's say the "Solomon Islands" Territory. But where does that Territory end? The hexes of the New Hebrides around Espiritu Santu would be part of it, for example, as would all of the hexes on the border of the Solomons zone. So to conquer the whole "Solomon Islands" Territory you need to control ports in a whole bunch of places in about 4-5 sea zones, because the hexes on the zone borders would be part of that Territory. How do you get the hex between Palau and Yap? Just by taking those two ports, without Truk or the other ports on the Bismarck?

Well, you conquer the Solomons by conquering Guadalcanal, as it is the only port in the Solomons. The hexes between Palau & Yap are part of the Palau islands, so you get it by controlling all Palau's ports. Truk is a port of the Caroline Islands, as Ponape.

So how do you decide which Territory a WiF FE hex is a part of? What about the all important hexes on zone boundaries?

I know it by Geographic knowledge.

The way we play, to get the single hexes in the Solomons, you need Truk, Ponape, Guadalcanal, Espiritu Santu, Tarawa, and Nukufetau, and I'm possibly forgetting one more. (Kanton?) Once you have all of those ports, you conquer all of the single hexes inside the Solomons zone from the CW, but not the hexes on the border, unless you control all the ports in the other sea zone too. This is because we treat each hex not defined as part of a Territory by the 'home country definition' rule as it's own separate Territory. Am I really the only person to play this way? I still don't think so.

What you describe has no support in the rule. I wonder how you come up with that. It is as saying that if controlling France and the Netherlands, then you controll Belgium.

All I'm saying is you should include something that highlights this in the documentation - "Each hex is now part of a defined Territory (a group of hexes without a capitol) or a minor country (which has a definite capitol) which can be conquered separately. The (Te) is designated in parentheses for any hex that is not clearly inside that Territory. Territories without ports can still be conquered by controlling every port in every sea zone touching a hex in that Territory." It's probably better to have them all part of a defined group, will clear up confusion I think, but we've never tried doing it that way.

You're right this should be highlighted in the documentation. Steve has added the Clarifications from Harry in it, so I'm suprised that the Truk / Caroline is not more visible in it.

As for keeping the MWiF map the same, that logic seems to be applied quite subjectively in this process. In other areas unrealistic changes are made 'to keep it the same as WiF FE'.

Making it the same in the islands of the Pacific is not possible.
If we say yes to the New Britain / New Ireland "problem", which is not one by me, next time we will be asked to add islands east and south of Rabaul so that a plane based in Rabaul has to fly 6 hexes before reaching an hexdot (which is how it behave on the WiF FE map). The changing of scale brings in a lot of changed that we need to live with. The changes that I advocate doing to keep the MWiF map "the same" were supply considerations, they were not that kind of consideration.

There are a lot of places on the WiF FE map where the scale brought specials behaviors, we need not keep those faulty scale-induced behaviors with MWiF.
Marcus says that the 1985 map had a crossing arrow, and we see that the WiF FE map has it disappear. If it disappeared it means that it was decided as not not warranted by ADG, so maybe the fact that they are adjacent is not warranted either (remember that ADG designed the first versions of the MWiF map).

Maybe it is harder to attack now (which is wrong because MAR can still invade in addition to 2 corps who attack from inland), but it is now easier to bombard because Carrier Planes on Carriers in the Coral Sea no longer have to have 6 points of movement to reach Rabaul.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Nauru is a Territory controlled by the CW. It is a single hex Territory. It has no port.

That's exactly what I've been trying to point out. There are numerous single hex territories
all over the current map. Now, they are grouped together in a lot of new Territories. Some
of these lie across sea zones in different ways than the WiF FE map.

Well, you conquer the Solomons by conquering Guadalcanal, as it is the only port in the Solomons. The hexes between Palau & Yap are part of the Palau islands, so you get it by controlling all Palau's ports.

I know it by Geographic knowledge.

What you describe has no support in the rule. I wonder how you come up with that. It is as saying that if controlling France and the Netherlands, then you controll Belgium.

Geographic knowledge is a great way to solve questions in WiF. Unfortunately without printed boundaries, you can't do that playing WiF with a bunch of wargamers. One player's geographic knowledge will differ from another's. This is why we've always played as if only (MP) territories are political units, and elsewhere it is a hex at a time. Otherwise, how can you tell where the Fiji Islands end and the Ellice Islands start? What territory includes the unnamed island at the junction of the Solomons/Hawaiian Islands/Polynesia zone? If the Japanese want that hex they have to take it with units, otherwise it would require controlling Samoa, Pearl, and Truk (and many other ports) simultaneously. I don't know which territory it is in now, but without using units probably a single port determines it's fate now, quite different. I don't think assigning hexes to near-by labels on the map, although a smart and convenient way to do it, has any basis in the current rules.

For Rabaul, as long as there is a land hex to attack it from the map is fine, in my opinion. I think it should be a three-zone port like Truk though. Basing there slows you down in the Solomons as compared to basing in Truk - how realistic is that?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
Geographic knowledge is a great way to solve questions in WiF. Unfortunately without printed boundaries, you can't do that playing WiF with a bunch of wargamers. One player's geographic knowledge will differ from another's. This is why we've always played as if only (MP) territories are political units, and elsewhere it is a hex at a time. Otherwise, how can you tell where the Fiji Islands end and the Ellice Islands start? What territory includes the unnamed island at the junction of the Solomons/Hawaiian Islands/Polynesia zone? If the Japanese want that hex they have to take it with units, otherwise it would require controlling Samoa, Pearl, and Truk (and many other ports) simultaneously. I don't know which territory it is in now, but without using units probably a single port determines it's fate now, quite different. I don't think assigning hexes to near-by labels on the map, although a smart and convenient way to do it, has any basis in the current rules.

Well, in WiF FE, I'd say that this is to the player's group to decide before playing.
This said, I think that very few person care about where the Fiji or the Ellice end, you will just take the island hex you need directly.
In MWiF, the map has each hex belonging to a Territory, a Major Power or a Minor Country already, no ambiguity.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
In MWiF, the map has each hex belonging to a Territory, a Major Power or a Minor Country already, no ambiguity.

One thing that could help, would be that when the mouse is over a hex of a country, that all the country is highlighted.
As this would be a pain if that happened all the time, maybe this would only happen when you would have activated first.

[brian brian]

I think this new way to do it is an improvement. But if you don't think about it in advance, things work a bit differently now. So what Territory does include that three zone island?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think this new way to do it is an improvement. But if you don't think about it in advance, things work a bit differently now. So what Territory does include that three zone island?

You can know who own each hex on the map, the Territory name appear in one of the informations bar.

Also, for entengled, intermixed areas (areas where island chains are mixed, or not easy to tell, or seem mixed), I tried to add the name of the Territory in parenthesis after thename of the island. For example in the Cook Islands who are intermixed with the Tonga and the Fiji and a little with the French Polynesia.

[composer99]

Thinking a bit back to the issue of changing the territories around Rabaul, I am in favour of the compromise change. As for the later discussion on Rabaul and the position of the islands around it - on principle I agree with marcus; however it's no skin off my teeth however it gets resolved (or doesn't).
 
I think that the lack of hexes from which to use Marines and/or bombarding artillery from New Ireland onto Rabaul is made up, at least in part, by the much lower defensibility of New Britain (five hexes to cover, one of which is jungle, instead of two that are both mountain) and the ability to get air power involved more easily (carrier planes with low ranges & the plenitude of airbases).

[Norman42]

Re: The Rabaul Problem

I don't think its really all that serious an issue, not a game-breaker by any means.

Due to the scale change on the Pac/Asia maps there are a huge number of locations that have the same issue (ie different number of hexdots til you reach a seabox, different number of hexsides that can attack hex XXX). This is just something that has to be accepted unless it makes a *radical* change that severely alters playbalance. A much bigger change is Guadalcanal becoming a 2 hex island, but even this isn't a huge worrying change.

Rabaul can still be attacked by 2 inf and 2 marine corps...the 2 marines just have to start on transports now.

[Norman42]

I do have a question with regards to the Hawaiian Islands. What isles are all considered part of this 'territory'? Is Midway included? Does conquest of Oahu(and Midway if Hawaiian) auto conquer the entire chain of islands?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norman42
I do have a question with regards to the Hawaiian Islands. What isles are all considered part of this 'territory'? Is Midway included? Does conquest of Oahu(and Midway if Hawaiian) auto conquer the entire chain of islands?

Midway is part of the Hawaiian islands.
Conquering Midway and Honolulu gives you all the chain.
I noticed that there is a "Midway Islands" Territory in the data files of the map (CGA file, entry #198), but it is not used in the game. Maybe it is here from an earlier incarnation of the map, I don't know.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Norman42
I do have a question with regards to the Hawaiian Islands. What isles are all considered part of this 'territory'? Is Midway included? Does conquest of Oahu(and Midway if Hawaiian) auto conquer the entire chain of islands?

Midway is part of the Hawaiian islands.
Conquering Midway and Honolulu gives you all the chain.
I noticed that there is a "Midway Islands" Territory in the data files of the map (CGA file, entry #198), but it is not used in the game. Maybe it is here from an earlier incarnation of the map, I don't know.

I bet you're just looking for an empty slot in the list of countries so you can add a new one.[:D]

Actually, I have never rigorously examined the country list and if there are unused ones, we could remove them. However, that has to be done very carefully, since the sequence determines the country number and the country number is used in the terrain file to assign each hex to a country. But I am sure you already know all this.

[jcprom]

I agree, but we should also look at the situation from the Japanese side.

If the CW somehow garrisons Rabaul with 2 units, one of them white print, things get really tough.