AI for MWiF - France

[Extraneous]

I do respect your opinion but I know we will not agree on this.

I would suggest we request a rule clarification.

The basic formulas are:

RM = (‘Res’ + ‘Mil’) all go into the Vichy force pool.

LA = (Land units + Aircraft units)

Vichy Force pool = RM + (LA / 2)

Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot is lost with each removed aircraft.

If the sentence read: "Metropolitan Vichy France and THEN each administration group controlled by Vichy France" I would agree with you completely.


But as it is this can be read 2 ways,

1) Use the LA formula for Metropolitan Vichy France and then for each individual administration group controlled by Vichy France and sum the totals.

2) Subtotal Metropolitan Vichy France and all administration groups controlled by Vichy France and divide by 2.


The problem is with how to read: "Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France".

You see it as instructions to perform LA formula on Metropolitan Vichy France and then for each individual administration group controlled by Vichy France.

When I was a "code jockey" this is how I would have coded the instructions.

The instructions would have to been understood to subtotal Metropolitan Vichy France and all administration groups controlled by Vichy France.

This is a simplified explanation where LAM represents Metropolitan Vichy France while LA1 ~ LA9 represent the administration groups. And assumes that all administration groups are controlled by Vichy France.

LAM = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA1 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA2 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA3 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA4 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA5 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA6 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA7 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA8 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA9 = (Land units + Aircraft units)

LA = LAM + LA1 + LA2 + LA3 + LA4 + LA5 + LA6 + LA7 + LA8 + LA9

Vichy Force pool = RM + (LA / 2)


For me formula LA becomes a subtotal of Land units and Aircraft units in "Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France".

[paulderynck]

No it is Free France that gets all the units in its Force Pool ("RM" plus others, after halving) except the Territorials which both FF and Vichy get according to the control rolls. Vichy gets half the remaining on-map units. (= .5 * ("LA"-"RM") ) Vichy never has anything but Territorials in its Force Pool. Any on-map units Vichy loses go into the Free French Force Pool.

I grant that it can be read two ways, but taking the areas individually is logical because "(taken together)" appears after land and air units but not a second time after "Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group".

But anyway I will check into it on the Rules discussion list.

[Extraneous]

Would you agree to this outline?

17.3 Units (Edited)
RELOCATE FRENCH ON MAP UNITS
The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government now moves every French controlled unit at sea (even those face-down) to the nearest Vichy or Free French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which they may stack. If naval units cannot return to a port within range, they are destroyed.

Next, the same player moves every French controlled land or aircraft unit in a hex controlled by an Axis major power to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free-France. Rebase every French controlled naval unit in such a hex to the nearest port within DOUBLE their range controlled by Vichy France or Free France. They are destroyed if this is not possible.

The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an Allied major power. French controlled naval units rebase at double their range, and French controlled land and air units are moved to the nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex. Alternatively, an Allied major power can destroy every French controlled unit in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is HOSTILE to that major power (see 17.5 Combat with Vichy).

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), you can only move an aircraft for each French pilot on the production circle or the pilot track (Vichy player’s choice). Any un-piloted aircraft on the production circle and reserve pool, or unused pilots on the circle or track, are lost


WHO RETAINS FRENCH ON MAP UNITS
Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot is lost with each removed aircraft.

All on map French controlled units that are in Vichy Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy France controlled administration groups are now controlled by Vichy France those in Free French controlled administration groups are now controlled by Free France.

Vichy French on map units are units in Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy France controlled administration groups.

Free French on map units are units in Free France controlled administration groups.

French controlled NAVAL units on the production circle, in the repair pool or in the construction pool remain there as Vichy French units. They may be built using whatever production Vichy France retains.


RELOAD THE FRENCH FORCE POOLS
Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

AfA option 10 (22.4.5 Territorials (AfA option 10)): All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

Vichy French force pool = TER from Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy administration groups.

All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).

Note:
You put the ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units into the Free French force pool.

Then you put half the other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France (your way or my way) into the Free French force pool.

Then you randomly remove half the units now in the Vichy French force pool and Free French force pool.

Vichy French force pool = (TER from Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy administration groups) / 2.

Free French force pool = (all units in the Free French force pool) / 2.

[paulderynck]

Agree except at the end there, you don't remove half the units in the Vichy French force pool because they will all be Territorials which are exempt from that.

I checked on the rules forum and the next version of the rules has already been amended so that the halving of the units in the Vichy controlled areas is in toto (i.e. you were right about that and the designer said it was unclear in RAW7 but has now been fixed). Next thing to check would be MWiF RAC and if it is similarly unclear then we would need to find out how it is implemented in MWiF, since the AI is for MWiF, not WiFFE.

[Extraneous]

[:D] Thanks for your help proofreading my stuff [:D]

RELOAD THE FRENCH FORCE POOLS
Randomly remove half the units now in the Free French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

In your view, when you randomly remove half the Free French force pool do the TER count toward the total number of units in the Free French force pool or not?

FP ~ total number of units in the Free French force pool
TU ~ total number of TER in the Free French force pool

Example:

Number of units to be removed = FP / 2

Or

Number of units to be removed = (FP - TU) / 2

I wish they had written the rules stating which force pools it would have made this easier.

I'll edit my version of 17.3 once we get the kinks out of it.

[paulderynck]

In my view it does not matter because whoever controls the country gets the Territorial(s) for it. Why bother removing them if you are going to put them right back again? As for putting it in a formula, the number removed could easily exceed (FP - TU) / 2 because you remove half by type, which means all odd numbers of types lose half round up.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In my view it does not matter because whoever controls the country gets the Territorial(s) for it. Why bother removing them if you are going to put them right back again? As for putting it in a formula, the number removed could easily exceed (FP - TU) / 2 because you remove half by type, which means all odd numbers of types lose half round up.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

AfA Option 10: All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

You now remove from the game all conquered minor country units in the force pools. Half of these units may be returned to the force pools upon liberation (see 13.7.5). If Vichy France currently exists, randomly remove from the game half the units in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units).

The RAW, WiF scenarios, and WiFFE_FAQ_v1.3_7_July_2009.pdf (the ADG FAQ) doesn't mention removing units by type.

I can understand if this is a convention you have become comfortable with but the rules don't support it.


Considering the total number of units in the French force pool (using VASSAL) random removal could cause some years where there would be no units to be built at all.

But other years could see a surge of Free French support (I.E. More units available to be built in the French force pool).

[composer99]

Extraneous:

Units are sorted by type into individual force pools (see RAW 24.1.5 in the scenario booklet):

Sort your units into force pools. Each major power needs a separate force pool for each unit type. So, you need one each for CAV, INF, MIL, GAR, MOT, MTN, MAR, PARA, MECH, ARM, HQ-A, HQ-I, SUB, CL, CA, BB, CV, TRS, AMPH, Convoy points, FTR, LND, NAV and ATR. You only have 1 force pools for each type regardless of how many countries contribute units to your force pools.

Some of these unit types come with different costs. For example, some LND will cost you 4, some will cost you 5 and some will cost 6 build points. Separate each unit type into a sub-force pool for each cost (first cycle cost only in the case of naval units). [Emphasis mine]

As such, removing units from each French force pool is equivalent to removing units of each type.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In my view it does not matter because whoever controls the country gets the Territorial(s) for it. Why bother removing them if you are going to put them right back again? As for putting it in a formula, the number removed could easily exceed (FP - TU) / 2 because you remove half by type, which means all odd numbers of types lose half round up.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

AfA Option 10: All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

You now remove from the game all conquered minor country units in the force pools. Half of these units may be returned to the force pools upon liberation (see 13.7.5). If Vichy France currently exists, randomly remove from the game half the units in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units).

The RAW, WiF scenarios, and WiFFE_FAQ_v1.3_7_July_2009.pdf (the ADG FAQ) doesn't mention removing units by type.

I can understand if this is a convention you have become comfortable with but the rules don't support it.


Considering the total number of units in the French force pool (using VASSAL) random removal could cause some years where there would be no units to be built at all.

But other years could see a surge of Free French support (I.E. More units available to be built in the French force pool).

what ???? you only remove from the current force pool ...all future units are added normally ...

its not half of all French units ..its half the units in the force pool at the moment of vichy ..

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The RAW, WiF scenarios, and WiFFE_FAQ_v1.3_7_July_2009.pdf (the ADG FAQ) doesn't mention removing units by type.

This is the glaring error in your analysis. Vichy has no Force Pool until after this point and it only has Territorials in it. Here is the relevant quote from RAW which was never questioned and therefore never a candidate for the FAQ:

"Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game."

The key here is that "each French force pool" means (like Composer says) each of the types that are sorted as per: "Each major power needs a separate force pool for each unit type." It does not mean each of Vichy vs. FF.

Re-read 17.3 Units under French Units again and you will see that you never put units into a Vichy force pool during the "Units" process, only into the French force pool.

[Extraneous]

Agreed (I didn't think I would have to read the RAW7scemario.pdf for a rule clarification on force pools).

Rhetorical question: why didn't they say, " the French force pools" instead of "each French force pool"?

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

In all scenarios where Free French units are set up (i.e. after 1939), randomly remove half the units in each Free French force pool (AfA option 10: except territorial units) from the game after set up.

(This is the part of rules that absolutely supports your statement.)

Note: It is not the current Free French force pools it is all Free French force pools.

[michaelbaldur]

Note: It is not the current Free French force pools it is all Free French force pools.

just but future units are not part of any force pools.... they are added to the force pools later

[Extraneous]

There are 7 scenarios affected by the division of the Free French force pool.

24.4.1 Missed the Bus ~ The end of the beginning: Jul/Aug 1940 - Jul/Aug 1945
2 TRS are lost but 2 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.2 Lebensraum ~ Germany moves east: May/Jun 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
3 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.3 Waking giant ~ The USA enters the war: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
3 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.4 Brute force ~ The Allies hit back: May/Jun 1942~Jul/Aug 1945
3 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.5 Darkness before the dawn ~ The beginning of the end: Jul/Aug 1943 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
4 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is in the Free French construction pool.

24.4.6 Decline and fall ~ The Allied ascendancy: May/Jun 1944 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
4 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Free French.

24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
2 TRS are lost but 1 will still be available to be built if none are built. 1 TRS is on map.

When we divide the Free French force pool which scenario should we use?

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

In all scenarios where Free French units are set up (i.e. after 1939), randomly remove half the units in each Free French force pool (AfA option 10: except territorial units) from the game after set up.

[Extraneous]

I guess that the division of the Free French force pools is a situation of missed opportunities.

The longer the scenario the more opportunities and the larger the French force pools. Conversely the shorter the scenario the more missed opportunities and the smaller the French force pools.


Now would you agree to this outline?

17.3 Units (Edited)
17.3.1 Relocate the French on map units
The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government performs the following actions in the following order to relocate French on map units.

UNITS AT SEA
Move every French controlled unit at sea (even those face-down) to the nearest Vichy or Free French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which they may stack.

FRENCH CONTROLLED UNITS IN A HEX CONTROLLED BY AN AXIS MAJOR POWER
Move every French controlled land and aircraft to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free France.
Rebase every French controlled Naval unit to the nearest Vichy France or Free-France controlled port within DOUBLE their range.

FRENCH CONTROLLED UNITS IN A HEX CONTROLLED BY AN ALLIED MAJOR POWER
Move every French controlled land and aircraft to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free France.
Rebase every French controlled Naval unit to the nearest Vichy France or Free-France controlled port within DOUBLE their range.

Alternatively, an Allied major power can choose to destroy all French controlled units in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is HOSTILE to that major power (see 17.5 Combat with Vichy).

Any French controlled naval unit unable to return to a port controlled by Vichy France or Free France is destroyed.


17.3.2 Determine who controls which French units
Vichy France retains control of All French NAVAL units that are in:
The production circle where when they finish their cycle if FACE-UP they become Vichy reinforcements or if FACE-DOWN they become available for Vichy to finish building.
The repair pool and are available for Vichy to repair.
The construction pool and are available for Vichy to build.

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), you can only move an aircraft for each French pilot on the production circle or the pilot track (Vichy player’s choice). Any un-piloted aircraft on the production circle or in the reserve pool is returned to the French force pools. All unused pilots on the production circle or pilot track are lost.

Return to the French force pools all on map French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units.

Take half the total on map French land and aircraft units (totaled together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each Vichy French administration group and return them to the French force pools. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot with each removed aircraft is lost.

All on map French controlled units that are now in:
Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy France controlled administration groups are now controlled by Vichy France.
Free French controlled administration groups are now controlled by Free France.


17.3.3 Reload the French force pools
If you are playing with 22.4.5 Territorials (AfA option 10): All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

Randomly remove half the units in the French force pools (but not the Vichy force pool) from the game. All units that are left in or that enter the French force pools from now on are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).


If the French HQ ‘De Gaulle’ is neither in a hex controlled by Free France nor the in the French force pools, place it in the French HQ force pool.

[paulderynck]

Only one minor quibble- for the two occurrences of "14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28)" its better to say the pilot is lost. Pilots are not in force pools.

Also the last line: "If the French HQ ‘De Gaulle’ is neither in a hex controlled by Free France nor the in the French force pools, place it in the French HQ force pool." has an extra "the" in it.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Only one minor quibble- for the two occurrences of "14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28)" its better to say the pilot is lost. Pilots are not in force pools.

Also the last line: "If the French HQ ‘De Gaulle’ is neither in a hex controlled by Free France nor the in the French force pools, place it in the French HQ force pool." has an extra "the" in it.

[:)] All help is appreciated. [:)]

(Made 2 changes about pilots being lost)

Any un-piloted aircraft on the production circle or in the reserve pool is returned to the French force pools. All unused pilots on the production circle or pilot track are lost.

If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot with each removed aircraft is lost.

[Extraneous]

The reason I suggested the "UPDATED VERSION 1.3 FOR THE FREE FRENCH" scenario was three fold.

1) Have enough Free French CP's to form Convoy lines to the USA to allow them to build up and reduce the stress on the CW ground and air units.

2) Have enough Free French CP's to form Convoy lines to the CW to allow them some resources from the Free French that would not hamper or overstress the existing CW Convoy lines.

3) Give the Free French player some units so as to continue to be a threat.



The side trips I didn't expect but were very informative.

1) There is no such thing as a "French force pool". There are "French force pools" (plural) not "French force pool" (singular).

2) The in depth study of the creation of Vichy and Free France.

3) Italian shipping on the Europe map sets up only in the Mediterranean (from the FAQ).

4) A history lesson on the Afrique Occidentale Française, Afrique Équatoriale Française (AEF), and Département et Collectivités d’Outre Mer (DOM).

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
2) The in depth study of the creation of Vichy and Free France.

I must have read those rules 50 times before I thought I understood them and continue to read them for something or other in every game I play.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
In the Med I have one French and one or more CW CP in the east and west Med. If Italy DoWs they have to DoW both CW and France or DoW one and S&S the other, which is fine for US entry. (No extra cost to DoW both at once but accommodates strategies where they only DoW one.) Also you can burn the oil you start with that's in France and save the new one from Iraq in Syria. For re-org next turn, you don't need to trace through the Med, you can trace around Africa. Ideally, you avoid spending more than two-fifths of an oil for France for re-org on turn 1. Sometimes I have the extra Med CW CPs start in ports outside the Med and "await developments". They can move into place later in the turn with a Combined action.

I usually put most of the French CPs in the Pacific as they have the highest chance to go FF there. I believe the number one thing FF needs force-wise is a navy.

35. An Axis major power (other than Japan) executes a search and seizure (There is a 20% chance a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool) (see 13.6.1 Resources).

If I were Italy I would take the 20% chance (often).


Free-French Chart* (Administration group: Die (% chance to become Free French))

You put most of the French CP in New Caledonia?

This could work if your CW convoy line from Australia to Canada goes through the Coral Sea.

[paulderynck]

20% does not equal impossible. AAMOF if you do it both turns in 1939 the chance for the USA to get one extra chit is 36%. The 1939 chit pool is much better to draw from for the USA than the 39-40 pool. You might be happy with Italy but your axis partners will be less than impressed.