City defense, is AA even worth it?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Duedman and I both seem to notice that there's a wider difference between AA2 to AA3 as there is for example AA1 to AA2. Almost seems exponential. This in WiE. I haven't played WaW in MP since about 2 patches ago...but I'm pretty certain there were no changes to AA in WaW with the recent patches.
Also not sure if WiE AA is exactly the same as WaW AA, but it seems so.

I wonder if that is because of rounding. AAD against strat bombers increases by 1.5 per level, so
0=0 (!)
1=1.5 (rounds to 2)
2=3 (3)
3=4.5 (5)
So, there is a jump of 2 between level 2 and 3.

Thanks for the stats and it is true what we thought.

[Zeckke]

perfect, link; probably best.. noone beat a child"

byee

its time to play on steam and not here, thanks for all DEVs

i became a expert on AI and had job in this area.

[Tanaka]

Are we only talking about 44-45 here? So if by late war in history the Germans had no skilled fighter pilots left that means in this game if you still do have elite fighters they should do nothing against strat bombers?

During 1943, only about 25% of Eighth Air Force bomber crewmen completed their 25-mission tours—the other 75% were killed, severely wounded, or captured.

That is not happening in this game. Not even close by a mile. 90-100% survive against any elite axis fighters. It is the elite axis fighters that are all shot down by the strat bombers.

Because those flights were unescorted. Bombing without escorts in SC should provide simillar results in losses.

Ah no. In my game against the Colonel which is on YouTube his strat bombers slaughtered my fighters.

[BillRunacre]

Duedman and I both seem to notice that there's a wider difference between AA2 to AA3 as there is for example AA1 to AA2. Almost seems exponential. This in WiE. I haven't played WaW in MP since about 2 patches ago...but I'm pretty certain there were no changes to AA in WaW with the recent patches.
Also not sure if WiE AA is exactly the same as WaW AA, but it seems so.

I wonder if that is because of rounding. AAD against strat bombers increases by 1.5 per level, so
0=0 (!)
1=1.5 (rounds to 2)
2=3 (3)
3=4.5 (5)
So, there is a jump of 2 between level 2 and 3.

Thanks for the stats and it is true what we thought.

Yes, the reason is due to these changes, and as I recall, people were finding AA wasn't effective enough!

I'll have a think about this and see about modifying things.

v1.25.00 – September 12th, 2022
- Anti-Air units’s Strat. Bomber attack and defense values now increase by 1.5 per level of Anti-Aircraft Defense research (HarrySmith).

v1.26.00 – May 16th, 2023
AA units can now be upgraded to level 3 in Anti-Aircraft Defense.

[Duedman]

Thanks for looking into this Bill!

And yes. AA went from beeing annoyingly weak to ridiculously deadly.
Maybe there can be a middle ground

[Valenciana]

In addition to often posting gibberish he's also been cited more than once about flaming and antagonizing behavior.

[James Taylor]

Put an AA upgraded unit in an upgraded town, city, fortification etc. and park an upgraded AA unit next to it. What does that spell?

If the unit is an upgraded infantry, like special forces, with an entrenchment, it is an impregnable position.

Like Port Moresby.

[James Taylor]

Sort of like this

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Yes, sir. Those AA-Unit guns at level #3, are absolutely deadly. In current game, my opponent has Sicily with couple of them, beside Syracuse. German-HQ up the boot, and couple Ace Luftwaffe Fighters. Additionally, 2-German Bombers! I've lost at least 3-fighter units in Tunisia, couple Carriers port of Malta. It's early 1943, had to send massive Air Power to North Africa.

[havoc1371]

heavy bomber tech and max strategic bombers is definitely worth and should be a top priority. ive seen some players skip advanced tanks as the USA and just go heavy into infantry, but im not sure im ready to make that jump. Honestly I'm still not very impressed by production tech, but not sure Id cut it out completely, id just put it in the bottom priority

Should focus on bombing be on strat bombing be on France? I've seen some players use them in Turkey/Southern Russia as well.

strategic bombers are generally used for 2 things:

1. reduce MPP, so that could be french mines or oilfields in the USSR/middle east

2. cut supplies - this makes it difficult for axis to reinforce, as they are unable to operate units to the affected area. it takes alot of strat bombers to achieve this in france, but it can be done by 43. An allied player could do it anyplace they want to establish a presence, preferrably an area with sufficient ports to help reinforce. once the allies are well established, its hard for the axis to force them out

You forgot Axis using them to bomb Allied controlled ports in an invasion. I've had that used against me more than once to kill an invasion on the vine by not having a usable port.

[havoc1371]

Agree that strategic bombers are way overpowered. That they can trash a target hex isn't the issue. It's that they shrug off city AA and fighters like they're not even there, taking little or no losses, which is ahistorical. US Bomber Commands took massive losses during the war. Allies lost (or damaged beyond repair) about 40,000 planes in the strategic bombing campaign. The game has 4-5 level strategic bombers attacking with impunity. I think the designers need to increase the effectiveness of city AA and fighters vs bombers and remove the ability to double up on researching bombers.

[Tanaka]

Agree that strategic bombers are way overpowered. That they can trash a target hex isn't the issue. It's that they shrug off city AA and fighters like they're not even there, taking little or no losses, which is ahistorical. US Bomber Commands took massive losses during the war. Allies lost (or damaged beyond repair) about 40,000 planes in the strategic bombing campaign. The game has 4-5 level strategic bombers attacking with impunity. I think the designers need to increase the effectiveness of city AA and fighters vs bombers and remove the ability to double up on researching bombers.

THIS THIS THIS. THANK YOU!

[Duedman]

I second this. And it is the Axis Stratbombers (GE + IT) that pose the biggest threat. Because by the time the Allies can do more than just bomb some insignificant ressources, its over.

2 examples (from WiE tho).
1st: Hit that town north of Moscow with Axis Strats and in an instant there are no more convoys and everything north drops to 5 - including Leningrad

2024-04-30 18_56_21-SC3_ WWII War in Europe.jpg (102.11 KiB) Viewed 158 times

2nd:
Advance into the caucasus. A Russian defense around Grozny / Tiflis can be easily crippled by hitting the railroads.
Even before that you can trap Russian troops retreating from Rostov.

2024-04-30 19_02_51-SC3_ WWII War in Europe.jpg (101.83 KiB) Viewed 158 times

These are just examples.
And you can not put AA on every little town that MIGHT get attacked.
I begin to think that in MP Strats should be houseruled to one attack per turn

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I second this. And it is the Axis Stratbombers (GE + IT) that pose the biggest threat. Because by the time the Allies can do more than just bomb some insignificant ressources, its over.

2 examples (from WiE tho).
1st: Hit that town north of Moscow with Axis Strats and in an instant there are no more convoys and everything north drops to 5 - including Leningrad
2024-04-30 18_56_21-SC3_ WWII War in Europe.jpg

2nd:
Advance into the caucasus. A Russian defense around Grozny / Tiflis can be easily crippled by hitting the railroads.
Even before that you can trap Russian troops retreating from Rostov.

2024-04-30 19_02_51-SC3_ WWII War in Europe.jpg

These are just examples.
And you can not put AA on every little town that MIGHT get attacked.
I begin to think that in MP Strats should be houseruled to one attack per turn

Yep agree here with house-ruling Strat Bombers to 1 attack each per turn. We did that with TRP remember? It was even more acute there in that mod with double the turns in a year. At least the mod dev came to our way of thinking and changed that through game mechanics tweaking to 1 attack per turn.

The other issue is doubling down on research chits (Strat Bombers). I've seen Allied (USA mainly) Lvl 5 Strat Bombers on the board by late 1943!
1943. Come on man!
Bat winged jet bombers that can't be touched by AA or Axis ftrs, which usually are at Lvl 3 going to 4.

Research chit for Strat Bombers should be restricted to 1

[Duedman]

Yeah in TRP with 2 GE Stratbombers and the addon effects of double the turns and no AA on towns it was hilariously crazy.
Took us several forums pages to point a certains persons nose to the fact that not the Allied bombers were the issue.

But yeah. Currently, if Axis does not go wild on them (and end the game) chances are, the Allies will.
Research S&I with the US right away to reap in the uncontested research boost while not in the war. Double chit Stratbombers. Et voila - 1943 lvl5 Strats

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Speaking of game balance, Russia is getting mowed over on the ground. Russia is the new France. I can't even scratch the paint on German units. Nowadays, against any player with skill, I hoping The Reds make it to 1944.

[Lothos]

Yeah in TRP with 2 GE Stratbombers and the addon effects of double the turns and no AA on towns it was hilariously crazy.
Took us several forums pages to point a certains persons nose to the fact that not the Allied bombers were the issue.

But yeah. Currently, if Axis does not go wild on them (and end the game) chances are, the Allies will.
Research S&I with the US right away to reap in the uncontested research boost while not in the war. Double chit Stratbombers. Et voila - 1943 lvl5 Strats

Hi Duedman

My understanding is that you have not played TRP in a very long time so these issues you are describing are gone.

Germany can not get 2 Strategic Bombers, they only get 1 and their is no cheat way to get around it.

AA for towns are no longer needed with the latest release as damage has been flat lined and the Space Marine Strategic Bombers was due to them getting Fighter Defense from two seperate Upgrades (Heavy Bombers and Long Range) which ended up making their Fighter Defense higher than the Fighter attack. This is no longer the case so they will take damage.

As for poining certain persons, I am not sure what you are refering to. I will admit I am about to turn 51 so my memory is not as great as it use to be but as of right now I do not recall anyone pointing out that Strategic Bombers where overpowering within (lets say) the last 6 months because their have been so many changes in TRP.

"But yeah. Currently, if Axis does not go wild on them (and end the game) chances are, the Allies will.
Research S&I with the US right away to reap in the uncontested research boost while not in the war. Double chit Stratbombers. Et voila - 1943 lvl5 Strats"

Not anymore as of yesterdays release

[Duedman]

I was answering to OCB's post referring to the match I had with him which was about 10 months ago or something.
That's why I was writing in past tense.

Back then GE could get 2 Strategic bombers. Repeated pleas to look into their insane tactical power (amplified by no AA on ressources and the effect of double the turns) got either no answer at all or replies like "Axis has to keep fighters in France to counter the Strats". Missing our point in an almost comical matter.
OCB and I houseruled around this.

If the current state of your mod fixed things that's great.

What I also remember is you calling me a cheater for informing you about the oldest bug in the game (camera in replay jumped to the fog of war location if a ship was moved first - fixed recently). Because I realized you did not know and repeatedly moved your Subs first (not that they had a chance anyway with TRPs Gazillion Allied ships).

So now when, in your direct reply to me, I see "and their is no cheat way to get around it." I do raise an eyebrow....

[Lothos]

I was answering to OCB's post referring to the match I had with him which was about 10 months ago or something.
That's why I was writing in past tense.

Back then GE could get 2 Strategic bombers. Repeated pleas to look into their insane tactical power (amplified by no AA on ressources and the effect of double the turns) got either no answer at all or replies like "Axis has to keep fighters in France to counter the Strats". Missing our point in an almost comical matter.
OCB and I houseruled around this.

If the current state of your mod fixed things that's great.

What I also remember is you calling me a cheater for informing you about the oldest bug in the game (camera in replay jumped to the fog of war location if a ship was moved first - fixed recently). Because I realized you did not know and repeatedly moved your Subs first (not that they had a chance anyway with TRPs Gazillion Allied ships).

So now when, in your direct reply to me, I see "and their is no cheat way to get around it." I do raise an eyebrow....

The cheat way I was refering to was buying the unit before it was given to you by a decision/event which is how the German player was getting 2 Strategic Bombers.

Now the sub bug, my screenshot from my appology to you says it all. It was still a bug that the devs were not aware of and they did fix it.

You give me a hard time sometimes but you seem to always forget that apology.

[gigiduru]

Life is too short to hold onto grudges. Playerbase is to low to hold onto grudges.

In a war game we need more peace and love and hippies .