Potential Buyers List

[GBS]

Well I must be in the minority, at least among those that post in this thread, but I purchased the game and am having a great time with it.
Was I surprised by the price?  Yes
Is it enough to cause me not to purchase? No
This is entertainment for me and it competes with other activities I spend those $ on anually. I have to weigh all that and make decisions. Perhaps I'll not purchase that new sand wedge I was considering which cost a lot more anyway. I might not go to one Braves game I intended to go to.
Matrix sets the price and I determine to by or not based on how much I want the game. It's no use beating on Matrix about the cost. If the game doesn't sell, adjustments will be made and/or that will be the end of the series. From what I see, I got my moneys worth.

[DBeves]

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves
Well Eric - the majority of cost for a boardgame is made up of the cost of the physical components so your point is irrelevant

The cost of the physical components in a board game is still a fraction of the overall price. The rest pays for the development of the game, just like with a computer game. The download delivery method is a way for us to avoid the problems of the current retail market and it does reduce costs, but those costs are included in the additional $10 for a physical copy. The base download price here was set based on the development time and cost and would have been the same starting point for a board game.

Well I would dispute that vigorously - especially seeing as the justification used for not including printed manuals in your games is the high cost of printing - come on you cant have your cake and eat it - there is a whole lot more printing involved in a boardgame than a computer game and if its still a "fraction" of the cost why dont we have printed manuals with your games as standard.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: DBeves
Well I would dispute that vigorously - especially seeing as the justification used for not including printed manuals in your games is the high cost of printing - come on you cant have your cake and eat it - there is a whole lot more printing involved in a boardgame than a computer game and if its still a "fraction" of the cost why dont we have printed manuals with your games as standard.

I think you're misunderstanding my point.

Manuals do cost a lot to print, because you have to print all the manuals you reasonably expect to sell in one print run to reduce the cost per manual. The $10 additional for the physical copy usually covers the cost of the manual and box for each sale, but it does not cover the up front cost of the entire print run.

That is still a fraction of the total cost to create the game and the same applies for board games on a per copy basis. We actually worked with Mark Walker to develop and produce an award-winning board game (Band of Heroes) so we do know what the costs are and the majority of the cost of a board game is still the cost of the development time and the work that goes into bringing it to final production quality before anything is printed. The same applies to computer games.

Regards,

- Erik

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

That's an interesting conclusion. I've seen this "greed" meme tossed around as well. I understand how it can seem that way from the customer's perspective if you assume that we are selling as many copies as a mainstream title and simply asking more money for each copy. However, the price increase in this case was strictly to try to cover the development costs for BFTB, which too four years to make and sells in a niche market that does not have mass market economies of scale. Although I called the game itself a Ferrari, no one here is driving Ferraris as a result of these game sales. I drive a "reasonably priced car" which I bought used. This is not about greed in the sense of making more money than you really need, instead it's about making a living and just getting enough of a return on investment to continue development. ...

That's all fair and dandy. And it's your given right to think so. But just because a game becomes ridiculously expensive to develop (albeit one fully based on an existing engine...) you also certainly need to factor what was that caused the increase in cost? Is it due to delays? In my industry , delays, at the tone of thousands are absorved by those responsable by them. Not passed on to the end user or client, that had no responsability in them.

Also, if Panther feels that they cannot continue to develop games if they do not cost less than $70 for a download (now, more in the future?), then, how can you conclude:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
... I would only say to those that are not able or willing to buy at the current price that we hear you and we hope that in the future we will be able to make BFTB available at your price point. ...

If the cost is what Panther requires to continue making games, then , how is it possible to go down? On the other hand, if you say you hope to bring it down, what incentive is there for me to pay premium price for a luxury item?

I again say, charge $70, but at least give us a printed manual. Not a bloody download.

But anyway, I cannot buy it, and so, no point in continuing this debate.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: jmlima
For the external view of Panther, it also kills the 'we do it all for the hobby' motto that wargame companies so much like to parade around.

That's an interesting conclusion. I've seen this "greed" meme tossed around as well. I understand how it can seem that way from the customer's perspective if you assume that we are selling as many copies as a mainstream title and simply asking more money for each copy. However, the price increase in this case was strictly to try to cover the development costs for BFTB, which too four years to make and sells in a niche market that does not have mass market economies of scale. Although I called the game itself a Ferrari, no one here is driving Ferraris as a result of these game sales. I drive a "reasonably priced car" which I bought used. This is not about greed in the sense of making more money than you really need, instead it's about making a living and just getting enough of a return on investment to continue development.

I understand entirely the arguments against the pricing. I would only say to those that are not able or willing to buy at the current price that we hear you and we hope that in the future we will be able to make BFTB available at your price point. We will have a demo available in a few weeks as well to help with the purchase decision. I should also point out that we did try lower prices at release on COTA and HTTR and it was time to try a different strategy for BFTB.

Regards,

- Erik

You see Erik that is really the nub of the point here - what you are doing is asking for a premium from early adopters - those of us who want it later may or may not get it at a more reasonable price later. You will make more money in the long run if your strategy proves to be correct. I dont think thats greed - its common sense and if it works - good business practice.

What you must understand is the worry from most people is that your strategy works - cause that means they have to wait longer to get the game or dont get it at all. Maybe the reall issue here is that this is the way it must happen for games of this type - and that for a lot of people means a lot less games they get to take a look at ... Persnally I would have gladly paid this price for WiTE - what I dont like is that I could see that game being considered even more premium than this one.

But still - if you are to run wargaming as a commercial enterprise and produce the depth of content we demand maybe up till now we have all been living in a dream world that we can have them at the prices they have been going for. Sad maybe as we now cannot get the range of games we wanted before and all have to be a bit more choosy in a way we wernt before. I still cannot see in a market whoose purchasers are as rigidly restricted as this that it works but I guess this is you experiment to see if it does. I would have liked to take a look at this but will not at the price - I guess in reality I am no worse off for that given the Price vs dollar entertainment argument which will now seemingly factor a whole lot more in my decisions to buy than it did.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: jmlima
For the external view of Panther, it also kills the 'we do it all for the hobby' motto that wargame companies so much like to parade around.

That's an interesting conclusion. I've seen this "greed" meme tossed around as well. I understand how it can seem that way from the customer's perspective if you assume that we are selling as many copies as a mainstream title and simply asking more money for each copy. However, the price increase in this case was strictly to try to cover the development costs for BFTB, which too four years to make and sells in a niche market that does not have mass market economies of scale.

But will the price increase cover the lost sales too?

[Hexagon]

Perturabo, the reply to your answers is YES, think that now they are wining near 19 euros in every game becuase when they do the sale the game are going to cost as now COTA (do the operations with 30% of discount), the idea is win extra money with ansious and later sold the game at the non discount price of COTA in the sales, is like sold the game and never have a TRUE sale for it [:@]

[TheGreatRadish]

Well, I have to admit that my eyes were on stalks after I had clicked on 'Buy Now' (fully intending to do so and with much excitement).  I just can't pay £70 right now (my job is under threat of redundancy at the moment) and would shy away from that sort of price at the best of times.

Of course, there is something to be said for the line of argument that it would be worth every penny in the long run and I completely understand that.  However, from a personal point of view, I have to justify all expenditure at the moment and I would probably have felt realtively at ease spending up to £45.  If my job was more secure, I would have been able to afford it and most likely would have bought at £70, though not without feeling that was over-priced.

[David Heath]

Hello,

We are listening and we fully understand why many of you are concerned with the price of this game and wanting to know if this is a shift in our pricing
policy. The answer is both yes and no. No this is not a shift in our pricing policy. Each product is priced for that product. On the yes side because we
always work with our developers when deciding the final price for any product. In the case of this game the release price was what Panther Games felt was
needed to allow them to recover their efforts and invest in new products. We will also be releasing a demo for you to try in the next few weeks,
which should help with your decisions on Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge.


David Heath

[milkweg]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

I watched the video on youtube, was not impressed, it looked like a RTS game and they are never worth more than $30. IDK...It seems the any ETO battle is child's play vs most East front battles, the scale, the troops that fought, i.e 8/10 Germans that were killed in WW2 where on the Eastern Front. If you like to MOD, it could be worth it, but again if it plays like a RTS.......

It is pause-able RT and is better than the old school hex TB games of yesteryear. Feels far more realistic than those games and is a very good system. Don't knock it until you try it. That being said I will buy this one when the price is lowered.

[milkweg]

How about a three installment layaway plan? Won't seem so expensive then, purely psychological, I know, but it works.

edit: that's twice now I have clicked on the below person when replying. This was meant as a reply to D. Heath and not myself, sorry.

[Howard7x]

Erik,

Id love to buy this game, ive wanted it for several years. £73 for a computer game, basing the price on the price of any other game (wargame or not) in recent history that I can think of have ever been interested in, you are wayyyy over my budget, its more than double most of the games I buy at a supposedly "Full Price". I find it amazing that for some reason you have justified the price to be so high. You have outpriced the average gamer. Id be interested to know, how many gamers that choose to buy games from matrix, like me, that own many of your releases and DO like to support developers (I buy everything SSG does) still feel that this is far and above the average price paid for ANY computer game anywhere right now.

Put simply, it bloody well is overpriced, shell it how you want. I think you made a mistake. If you lowered the price, you would have more sales. Would the increase in sales at a lower price make you more money than the limited sales you will recieve from the higher price? Id bet for every 1 person that purchased the game at $80, you would have had 3 people buying the game at $50-60. Youd have made more money. Only time will tell I guess.

[Sheytan]

55-60 USD. And a cookie!

[TargAK]

Nothing personal and I wish Matrix well and hope you sell lot's of copies.

I will be sitting this one out.

[ArtilleryHorse]

The price tag is no big deal to me either, except, if I am going to pay that price, the game must be top notch. This game is just a revision of an old game and you fanboys that say, you gotta pay for the good games, are not very bright. Matrix, get your act together, make a product worthy of the price if you want my money...


[&o]

[Adam Parker]

I classify myself as an impulse buyer too but I'm also an interest and playability buyer.

If I was on a budget that would be my key criteria - whether I'm interested in a game or not, can I afford it?

Next I ask does the subject and design approach interest me? After watching The Pacific for example I checked out WitP Admirals. Perfect subject but not a design I like - I hate micromanagement in games.

So this is where I am now with Bulge. Love the subject but will the design appeal to me. Having watched the vids I'm not convinced that this game isn't a click and forget thing. That will just bore me silly.

As for the manual, Erik said it's an eBook? Well if it reads in my iPhone that's one worry gone.

But I do agree with Judge. A $50 price tag would have made an easier impulse buy for me - an a way to burn some money at risk of the design approach.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

As for the manual, Erik said it's an eBook? Well if it reads in my iPhone that's one worry gone.

Novels yes, game manuals no. I load mine up on a Sony PRS-505 which can just about display them in comfortable readable form but an iPhone is a non-starter.

[jomni]

For iPhone a good app for PDF reading is GoodReader.
Though it does not do text wrap the pictures come out nicely.
I have the LOMAC manual loaded in my iPhone.

[Yogi the Great]

Ther must be some Federal Stimulus money out there for this purchase. "Cash for First Time Bulge Buyers" or "Homeland Security anti- terror Program" or "GM expansion program" [:-] Now cut that out Yogi [:-]

[htuna]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

I classify myself as an impulse buyer too but I'm also an interest and playability buyer.

If I was on a budget that would be my key criteria - whether I'm interested in a game or not, can I afford it?

Next I ask does the subject and design approach interest me? After watching The Pacific for example I checked out WitP Admirals. Perfect subject but not a design I like - I hate micromanagement in games.

So this is where I am now with Bulge. Love the subject but will the design appeal to me. Having watched the vids I'm not convinced that this game isn't a click and forget thing. That will just bore me silly.

As for the manual, Erik said it's an eBook? Well if it reads in my iPhone that's one worry gone.

But I do agree with Judge. A $50 price tag would have made an easier impulse buy for me - an a way to burn some money at risk of the design approach.

Impulse buyer too.. but 50 is a 'magic' number in the PC game world.. would try demo first, but would probably bite at that price, like I just did with Kharkov...

I think 50 is a magic number actually for a lot of PC gamers.. hear the screaming when Modern Warfare 2 went to 60 (high volume seller).. but that high price and lack of Dedicated Servers.. really crippled the PC sales (still a major hit with Consolers)...

how many sales get missed by people who don't know any better niche wise.. just see that magic number passed and don't look any further...

This series has a great rep, but I'll never know, cause even the previous title has been increased over that 'magic number'..