PureSim Has Been Acquired

[Gary Gorski]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Hold it, guys. Let's not compare PS with any other game. That is a non-issue. This is the game I play, and this is the game I love. The issue I have is being asked to pay $35 for a game I've already bought TWICE. I'll be damned if I pay out another $35 for this game. NO game is worth shelling out $100 for, no matter how much one loves it.

Can I ask you to clear something up here. You said you have bought the game twice already. Are you saying you purchased PS 2007 twice or are you saying that you bought the game twice because you bought PS 2005 and PS 2007?

The reason I ask is because if its the latter, that's not fair to Shaun or any game development studio to say that you've bought a game twice when you've bought two different versions of it. That's the same as me saying I bought Madden 2003 so I should be able to walk into Best Buy and get a steep discount on Madden 10. No game company operates this way. Each version is a new game - the same as each sequel to a movie is a new movie you have to pay for in the theatre or buy on DVD or each version of a TV is a new product just with expanded and improved features built upon the last one. In all cases the consumer decides if there are enough upgrades for his money and if not then he or she waits until a product comes along that does have enough to warrant a new purchase. Our company is no different than any other in that respect and neither are our products. Nobody would be able to stay in business if they never charged for new versions of products.

[dneely]

Guys:

Like KG I am one of the old guard around here having been through a 100 or so changes and moves by Shaun. Also like KG I felt like Gary at Wolverine was very condescending when we complained about the price and NO discount was mentioned when I and others asked about the price. I understand this is a business, kept alive by profits but how about the fact that Shaun made this a free-ware game and we all jumped back onboard. Now we are being asked to shell out $35 for a a game that is only slightly different than what we are playing now for free. Yes they are trying to attract new customers, and I certainly understand that!.......BUT we have the same game for free right now. Again the attitude displayed by the owner of Wolverine is what completely turned me off. Ask for say $19.95 and I would have been willing to strongly consider that, if for no other reason than to support Shaun! But between the $35 price tag and the attitude.....then you lost me.

Like KG I have supported this game since the beginning and paid for 2 versions (possibly 3) over the years, that said I deserve a discount! I pay for new version of the Action PC games each year and do so because I support the company and I'm getting a new season or 2 plus lots of new features. Do I always get my $$$ worth, that's a matter of discussion for another day. But having retired from teaching full time in high school and now only part time in college money is HARD to part with.

Well I've said too much already, so I will stop. I sure would like to hear from Shaun on this topic.....

Thanks

[dneely]

Gary:

Nobody would be able to stay in business if they never charged for new versions of product

Well I will use the example of the SAT game produced by Wayne and Richard. Once you purchase the game you are NEVER charged for a new season or a new version of the game! AND it is updated every year.

I don't know why I am trying to explain this again but you offered NO discount for a free game we already own, secondly you defended your position in a condescending and dismissive manner. Had you simply come forth and said the vets of PureSim certainly should get a discount for PureSim 2 but from this point on you will be required to purchase any "NEW and IMPROVED VERSIONS" at the regular retail price. If you had done that none of this fire-storm would ever have come up.

This is my last comment on this subject!

[Gary Gorski]

ORIGINAL: dneely

Guys:

Like KG I am one of the old guard around here having been through a 100 or so changes and moves by Shaun. Also like KG I felt like Gary at Wolverine was very condescending when we complained about the price and NO discount was mentioned when I and others asked about the price. I understand this is a business, kept alive by profits but how about the fact that Shaun made this a free-ware game and we all jumped back onboard. Now we are being asked to shell out $35 for a a game that is only slightly different than what we are playing now for free. Yes they are trying to attract new customers, and I certainly understand that!.......BUT we have the same game for free right now. Again the attitude displayed by the owner of Wolverine is what completely turned me off. Ask for say $19.95 and I would have been willing to strongly consider that, if for no other reason than to support Shaun! But between the $35 price tag and the attitude.....then you lost me.

Like KG I have supported this game since the beginning and paid for 2 versions (possibly 3) over the years, that said I deserve a discount! I pay for new version of the Action PC games each year and do so because I support the company and I'm getting a new season or 2 plus lots of new features. Do I always get my $$$ worth, that's a matter of discussion for another day. But having retired from teaching full time in high school and now only part time in college money is HARD to part with.

Well I've said too much already, so I will stop. I sure would like to hear from Shaun on this topic.....

Thanks

May I ask what I said that was condescending? My posts are all there on our forums - I'd certainly like to know what I said that was taken in such a manner.

Shaun making this game freeware has nothing to do with us nor are we stopping you from playing your freeware version. If that's the version you are happy playing then its perfectly ok. If you have the same game for free that we are offering (or even just slightly different) then why would you buy it unless you either a) simply wanted to support us or b) were paying retroactively for the hundreds of free updates you enjoyed? We're not asking anyone who is happy with the freeware version they have now to pay us one cent. We're saying that when we put out a version you feel has enough options that you are willing to pay for then come and make a purchase and in the meantime feel free to be part of our community, offer suggestions, talk about the game and post your dynasties.

In terms of discounts - again its more jumping the gun. Someone asked the price - I answered what the price of the game is. As a matter of fact we quite frequently have sales, give out coupons and for our other titles and even offer a pre-order 15% discount on our games. Nobody ever said there would be no discounts either now or in the future for the game.

You even said you pay for Action PC every year - why is ok for them to charge you every year? The notion that somehow we're forcing people to pay for an upgrade they don't feel is worth it is hard for me to understand. You have 1.86 for free - you can purchase PureSim2 if you choose to do so but not purchasing it doesn't change your ability to play 1.86 at all. What am I missing here? [&:]

[Gary Gorski]

ORIGINAL: dneely

Well I will use the example of the SAT game produced by Wayne and Richard. Once you purchase the game you are NEVER charged for a new season or a new version of the game! AND it is updated every year.

I don't know what SAT game is or who Wayne and Richard are but if that is how they operate that is fine. All the places that sell sports text sim games that I am aware of charge for each new version (Out of the Park, Front Office, Grey Dog Software, Diamond Mind, Action PC) - that is our business model as well.

I don't know why I am trying to explain this again but you offered NO discount for a free game we already own, secondly you defended your position in a condescending and dismissive manner. Had you simply come forth and said the vets of PureSim certainly should get a discount for PureSim 2 but from this point on you will be required to purchase any "NEW and IMPROVED VERSIONS" at the regular retail price. If you had done that none of this fire-storm would ever have come up.

This is my last comment on this subject!

Again, if you can point to where I said there would be no discount or that I would not consider a discount please do so. I'm also curious as to what was said in a "condescending and dismissive manner".

And once again, you're looking at this as I'm telling you that you need to pay us $35 for what you got for free and that's not the case. You don't have to pay us $35 for what you have now - you don't have to pay us one cent for what you have now. If you want more features then you need to pay us. Whether you purchase PureSim 2 when it is released, whether you purchase it when we have a sale going on, whether we have some kind of discount right from the start, whether you wait until PureSim 3...that's all I am saying. We're offering PureSim as a commercial product now - when you feel there is enough in there for you to get your money's worth that is when you should purchase it.

I know this is an adjustment because everyone has been getting a free game for many months now and if you are happy with that version then I'm happy for you. But you're saying that you feel the upgrades to PureSim 2 are worth only $x and you're upset because we're charging more than that but we're not charging for the upgrades from 1.86 - we're charging for the version of the game we have to sell to the general public.

Now if you've got a set price in mind that you will pay for those upgrades or even to support the game why not simply wait for your price to be met rather than saying "we've lost you" as a customer? If we've lost you as a customer already then why is there any incentive to try with you? As I said, we frequently offer sales, discounts, promotions...you name it in order to sell games. You said that you "deserve" a discount. I mean I'm a loyal customer to a lot of places but I don't think that any of them "owe" me a discount - I'm happy when I get one and I hope that they do see me as a loyal customer and want to reward me with discounts but to say that you "deserve" one means that you're really not open to even getting to know us as a company or how we operate.

That's why I've made an effort both in our forums and now even here to say hey, just everyone relax, everyone chill out and give us a chance. Just as we don't know some of the PureSim customer base - that same portion doesn't know anything about us or how we operate our business. Did you know that over the summer we had days where we sold even our premium products for 75% off? $10 for our best games. Do you know that at multiple times during the year we'll throw up a surprise sale just to people who are coming to spend time in our forums? If I didn't care about the customers why would I even come here? So before anyone else decides to swear off PureSim why not at least see what happens with the development of the game going forward?

Now if you are opposed to paying for new versions then I guess I really don't have much to offer - that's our business model as it is the business model of just about every other game developer regardless of genre. As I said, we at least try to off-set that somewhat through our pre-order discounts and our sales, promotions and coupons during the year...but if you're not going to give us a chance then you'll never get the chance to know that we do those kinds of things.

[rjolley]

I think part of the issue is that the game was free, we have been trying to help find bugs, and in the middle of working through those bugs, we're told that to get the fixes, we have to pay $35. Yes, we can get Puresim 1.86 for free and Puresim 2 for a cost, but the version we were working on was 1.87 beta 1, which will now, more or less, become Puresim 2.

I don't have a problem paying for Puresim 2. I've bought games from Shaun and continue to enjoy them. I hadn't had a chance to make a donation, but I certainly was and will pay for the game as that donation. That doesn't mean that I think that the timing of the new release is good. If the announcement was made with a release due in 2-4 months and the 1.87 beta was completed, then that makes sense. I believe that's what Shaun did in the past with Matrix.

So, I understand both sides of the argument. I'm not sure there's going to be an amicable agreement.

[Gary Gorski]

ORIGINAL: rjolley

I think part of the issue is that the game was free, we have been trying to help find bugs, and in the middle of working through those bugs, we're told that to get the fixes, we have to pay $35. Yes, we can get Puresim 1.86 for free and Puresim 2 for a cost, but the version we were working on was 1.87 beta 1, which will now, more or less, become Puresim 2.

I don't have a problem paying for Puresim 2. I've bought games from Shaun and continue to enjoy them. I hadn't had a chance to make a donation, but I certainly was and will pay for the game as that donation. That doesn't mean that I think that the timing of the new release is good. If the announcement was made with a release due in 2-4 months and the 1.87 beta was completed, then that makes sense. I believe that's what Shaun did in the past with Matrix.

So, I understand both sides of the argument. I'm not sure there's going to be an amicable agreement.

I understand that a large part of the issue is that the game was free - nobody is ever happy they are going to have to pay for something that was free. In fact I think only a handful of people actually donated when that was an option. But at the same time - people paid for PS 2007 and they were given PS 2007 with I'm sure some post release features and bug fixes. In other words they got what they purchased...then on top of that they (and everyone else) got a huge bonus of tons of new features when Shaun took the game freeware. I'm interested if people are upset that they had to pay for PS 2007 yet people who didn't pay could get PS for free just the same as them?

There was no good way to transition something from free to being something that needs to be paid for. I've seen that first hand with some other games in our genre. To be honest, I just assumed that most people who already have the free version would just stick with it until PureSim 3 (unless like you said they were just going to buy it as their donation for all the freebies they were given) - our reasoning for getting it on the market now is to get new customers involved especially now that its the MLB postseason.

I know that there's no way to please everyone and I try to do the best I can to accomodate as many people as I can which is why I never ruled out anything as a possibility. Why would I even bother in trying to talk to the people who are slamming me or Wolverine Studios if I didn't want to try and understand where they are coming from and explain our side of the issue as well. Maybe some people will not be happy no matter what path we take with the game but at the very least we're going to listen and do what we can to accomodate as many people as possible. Whether or not people give us that chance is up to them.

[rjolley]

Yep, bad spot for all. For me, I'd like to see the bugs that were addressed in 1.87 beta finished and made into a final 1.87 build, then get PureSim 2 out the door. From the business side, this is one of the times when baseball is at the height of popularity during a year, so it makes sense to get a product out now instead of waiting 4-6 months until spring training.

I'd hate to see the guys from here leave. I know that the issues they've investigated and helped track, and the features they've suggested have helped the game to grow. Hopefully, they will continue to do so in the future.

[Orcin]

Gary,

Many of the people posting on this topic have spent the summer here downloading frequent updates, commenting on features, and enjoying a product that was really in a state of constant flux. Version 1.86 was just one waypoint along the journey to us. Since we had no idea that there were negotiations ongoing, we just assumed that there would be another update next week. In fact, many of us have 1.87 BETA installed.

One point that bothers some of the users is that our updates have stopped without a proper ending. There were bugs identified that have yet to be resolved, graphical changes in progress but not completed, and features that had been introduced but not completely mature (such as AI improvements). Obviously, these were completely free updates, so no one has a right to demand anything more. But I think these loyal users, beta testers if you will, would like to see and use the product in a final state with the graphics changes complete and any remaining bugs squished.

You continue to mention that there might be discounts for previous owners. I think one solution toward calming the firestorm would be to make a defined offer in this regard. In other words, users who have a PS 2007 license can receive a PureSim 2 license for $X. That way, the current userbase would know that their updates will continue at a price that makes them comfortable. Obviously, you have to decide that price, but I urge you to be generous as most of these people will be your best advertisers going forward.

By the way, I have no stake in this suggestion. I do not own a license for a previous PureSim product. I was a "free user". So it does not benefit me personally to offer this solution. I am just trying to help.

Regards,
Orcin

[Gary Gorski]

ORIGINAL: rjolley

I'd hate to see the guys from here leave. I know that the issues they've investigated and helped track, and the features they've suggested have helped the game to grow. Hopefully, they will continue to do so in the future.

Despite what they may think I feel the same way.

I just wish everyone would take a step back and just let us release the product. The features it contains may not even be of interest to them so this may be a pointless discussion anyway. But if they are interested in the upgraded features then they can make a decision to either purchase it or not purchase it and wait for the price to come closer to what they are willing to pay.

I don't really know what more to say other than that - if people have made up their mind then there's not much we can do but I hope that everyone can just keep an open mind and see where things go with us and give us a chance. I've tried to reach out on our forums, on these forums and even through private message to say that the community is important and that we want you to be part of PureSim going forward no matter what version you choose to play.

[Gary Gorski]

ORIGINAL: Orcin

Gary,

Many of the people posting on this topic have spent the summer here downloading frequent updates, commenting on features, and enjoying a product that was really in a state of constant flux. Version 1.86 was just one waypoint along the journey to us. Since we had no idea that there were negotiations ongoing, we just assumed that there would be another update next week. In fact, many of us have 1.87 BETA installed.

One point that bothers some of the users is that our updates have stopped without a proper ending. There were bugs identified that have yet to be resolved, graphical changes in progress but not completed, and features that had been introduced but not completely mature (such as AI improvements). Obviously, these were completely free updates, so no one has a right to demand anything more. But I think these loyal users, beta testers if you will, would like to see and use the product in a final state with the graphics changes complete and any remaining bugs squished.

You continue to mention that there might be discounts for previous owners. I think one solution toward calming the firestorm would be to make a defined offer in this regard. In other words, users who have a PS 2007 license can receive a PureSim 2 license for $X. That way, the current userbase would know that their updates will continue at a price that makes them comfortable. Obviously, you have to decide that price, but I urge you to be generous as most of these people will be your best advertisers going forward.

By the way, I have no stake in this suggestion. I do not own a license for a previous PureSim product. I was a "free user". So it does not benefit me personally to offer this solution. I am just trying to help.

Regards,
Orcin

Thank you, I appreciate your feedback.

Just to be clear, there were no negotiations that were going on over the course of the free period. The freeware period was not some kind of trial to see if we could drum up interest in PureSim or whatever - Shaun took it free because he wanted to and never sought out me or anyone else to do anything else with it. I came to him with a proposal and it was done - just like that.

The reasons you mentioned are good ones for taking into consideration us doing something on our end and we're talking about just what we may want to do but again if people are going to take the attitude that they're just done with the game and not even going to give us a chance then there is probably very little that would satisfy them. Some of have written us off already even though all we've done is stated what the price point of the game will be.

[dickpierce]

Gary,
 
I guess a lot of us feel that we were ambushed by the whole chain of events.  That and the fact that there is a 1.87 beta version that still has unresolved bugs leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths.  I too had picked up the game only after it was freely available and recommended by a friend.  I also had been planning to give a $25 donation to Shaun.  If I had donated, would I have to pay an additional $35?  I agree with Orcin, a statement from you that would clearly delineate the costs to gamers that have purchased previous versions and or have given donations would go a long way in assuaging the the ill feelings many of us have.
 
I also believe that 1.87 should be released as a final version before going ahead with Puresim 2.  But that's my opinion for what it's worth.  In any case, I will shell out the $35 for the newer version.
 
 

[Wrathchild]

Some good points have been made about 1.87 being a beta. Those of us that wanted to keep up and help be a contributing factor in the evolution of this game are stuck with a beta if we decide that we don't want to buy or cannot afford the commercial version coming out next week. That leaves us in a bit of a pickle because I'm sure that a free 1.86 is no longer being made available. Does anyone really think that we would have willingly upgraded to a new beta if we knew that it was the end of the line for that version without having to pay for a new one? And I'm getting a little tired of seeing the line to the tune of 'you may want to buy it because a) you want to support the product or b) you feel good about all the free stuff you've been given.' Your Jedi mind tricks will not work on me. No one made any one give anything away so drop the subliminal guilt tripping in post after post. It just makes me less inclined to spend my money at Wolverine. Hell, I still have a virtually unplayed OOTP X to go back to.

[eric517]

I think Wolverine made its mistake with a poorly thought out announcement and release process. The announcement was a little vague and should have included the following things - the price of Puresim 2, any accomodations for current Puresim owners, and a complete explanation of the differences between 1.86 and Puresim 2. That would have taken a lot of the questions away immediately. Instead of controlling the situation, they have had to resort to letting the situation control them. Did they not have the details worked out in advance of the announcement? Are they going to withhold a couple features from 1.86 in order to entice a few more purchases?

I understand they have to start selling the game and this is a good time to start. Why not make 1.86 and Puresim 2 identical? Wolverine can market the "new" game and get new customers while proceeding with Puresim 3. Those who have 1.86 won't be guilted into paying for Puresim 2. Some of us who have enjoyed the free game will probably donate at some point (I would have already, but am unemployed) so please leave that option available.

I have to say I liked the free set-up. Shaun had no deadlines to deal with and could work as he was able. And, we were all a part of the development process. We saw how energized he was in that situation. In the long run, the game will probably grow and improve more quickly with a company's resources behind it and a larger development team working on it. Maybe in this set-up, Shaun can achieve a healthy balance of family, work, and the Puresim Project. In so doing, it will be more profitable for him - he deserves as much profit from his labors as he can get - and we game-players will be able to continue to enjoy it.

[redsoxfan99]

The transition was gong to be difficult however it was handled and I can see both sides of the arguement. I was wth the first releases of the game and have been all the way through and Shaun certainly deserves reward for all his efforts now and in to the future. As a by the way I also have paid for each early version as its been required to date and each purchase at the time included whatever ongoing upgrades Shaun put in to the project after that date. This year he came back and upgraded the product againfor free when the original agreement with Wolverine obviously wasnt working out.  The best way for this transition would be a new price for all new purchasers, or to "upgrade" for those who have 1.86 for free, and an upgrade discounted price for those who have paid and have a licence from the past. That way all parties should be happy and the game can move forward without any bad feelings in any direction.
 

[dneely]

I agree 100% with the comments from Wrathchild and eric517! This whole affair has been mishandled. Wrathchild said exactly what I wanted to say in my last post to Gary. I'm sorry Gary but your arguments don't work from our perspective! And is in insulting to keep trying to get us to pay $35 on a guilt trip.

I also wanted to mention that I own 2 titles by Gary and Wolverine so I have been supportive of his titles and company in the past and have never had any arguments with Gary previously. I have been annoyed at times by others who answer questions on their forums but that's as far as it goes. You will notice that Gary never addresses the central issue in this problem but instead talks around the edges and tries to keep telling us about all the free stuff we have received. Well we received it BECAUSE Shaun choose to make PureSim free-ware.

I say again what everyone else has said: If you had addressed the issue of "upgrading to PureSim 2" for the long time PureSim customers NONE of this would have happened. Yes you have periodic sales, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this situation. What it comes down to is we can keep playing a beta with numerous issues never resolved OR pay $35 for essentially the same thing.....

[PadresFan104]

ORIGINAL: Gary Gorski
I don't know what SAT game is or who Wayne and Richard are but if that is how they operate that is fine. All the places that sell sports text sim games that I am aware of charge for each new version (Out of the Park, Front Office, Grey Dog Software, Diamond Mind, Action PC) - that is our business model as well.

Of everything that's been said, the only thing that bothers me is that Gary is unfamiliar with the best PC Football Sim on the market! (Yeah, I contribute to SAT, so I'm a bit biased...) [:)]

www.secondandten.com

Check it out sometime Gary, it's a conversion of a table-top football game called First and Ten. It's not a career sim, but a replay sim like Action PC. Really fun game with great AI....

[HotCornerDave]

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[Gary Gorski]

ORIGINAL: Wrathchild

because I'm sure that a free 1.86 is no longer being made available.

Shaun said in the very first post that he asked for and I willingly agreed that 1.86 could be offered free forever. This just kind of proves what I'm saying that people are just jumping to whatever conclusions they see fit and aren't even listening to what we're saying.

[HotCornerDave]

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