WitP War in Russia MOD

[HerzKaraya]

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Ah! Good point. But then how come each of the three Finnish LB LeLv's have different upgrade paths? Ju-88A only shows up for the 44th and Do-17z only for the 46th?

PDU is on.
[/quote]

In the scenario editor you can set one upgrade path for an aircraft type, in case of the Fin Blenheim I - itself. But you can also give single squadrons specific upgrade paths, like the Ju88 for the 44th and the Do17 for the 46th. (or e.g. Fw190D9 for He111 KG converting to JG late in the war)
The reason we did this is twofold, either we knew for fact that a specific squadron upgraded this way (like the Fin - leaving one LeLv with the remaining Blenheims till the end of war and upgrading to other to German types) or because there was a need to let the game engine know what aircraft type was used by a specific airforce. This way you´ll see that for the Fin, Rum, Hun,... (Japanese Nay in game terms) only limited aircraft types are available, they won´t be able to choose the Me262 in any case. And the other way round.

[HerzKaraya]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

The mod is being executed in a PBEM match. It has been presented that some of the device values have been heavily biased towards the axis (such as tank guns range = 4 vesus soviet range = 2, even for the IS-2 tanks).

In addition a number of the aircraft stats appear to be innacurate
(Yak - 1 should have greater maneouverability, less durabilty, was similar to Spitfire / BF-109F)
Lagg-3 should have greater durability, less maneouverability (was similar to P-40)

The older aircraft (I-16, etc) have been greatly underestimated, and the maneouver values should be increased significantly --> a main factor why changes to newer modern types were resisted by Soviet pilots --> I-16 was similar to A6M, and suffered only because chinese models were equipped with early variants that were slow (270mph) and equipped with only 2 30 caliber MG (not to mention lack of pilot training, logistics, tactical deployments)

In addition, the most important Soviet aircraft has been excluded (Polikarpov PO-2), 40,000 were produced for reconnaisance / night bombing missions.

Thanks for your comments, let me try to give some answers:

About the Polikarpov Po-2, well it was also known as the U-2,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_Po-2
we have more than 8000 U2VS (aircraft 127) - the light bomber version, included in the Mod equipping LBAPs and NLBAPs
we have NOT included the transport, school, ambulance and liasion versions as we already have a huge amount of squadrons as it is right now (and we also haven´t included the Fieseler Storch for the same reason)

About the maneuver values for the different aircraft types - this is of course an area of great subjectivity. I have taken my raw data from TOH, BOB and WiTP, and added my "bonus" based on C. Bergstrom accounts (Black Cross/Red Star and other books) on Eastern Front air warfare. Yak-1 (MVR28) seemed to be equal to BF109E (MVR29) but was outperformed by BF109Fs. About the oldest types, I-15 and I-16, maybe I was a little harsch on them applying the performance factor based on ROC and top speed - I had to downtown it after Dali cried out he wasn´t getting a single kill, but I think their MVR values now quite reflect their inability to prevail against a first line fighter if the latter´s pilot used performance (not turning) maneuvers against them (as the LW aces did).
On top of that I had to vector something else in, that´s on top of Russian low pilot training (8hrs flight time in early42), it was their obsolete tactics (VIC formation vs Finger-4, close escort instead of sweeps, absolute lack of onboard radios,...
Russia had excelent MGs and the first AA rockets, brave and selfless pilots, but even though on paper one of their planes was equal to a German one, it´s full potential in my opinion was rarely fully exploited.

About the devices, the AFV values are based on JTCS and SPWAW data and if you look closely at those two games you´ll see that even though Russian AFVs have very big (in mm) and potent guns, these were unable to fire at the same distances as smaller caliber German AFV guns. The reason: Optics, Fire Control, gun laying, doctrine, training/experience.
In game terms a PzIVh will have a shot at range 3 at a T34/85, but if it misses, at range 2 it´s no match for the Russian Tank. And then there should be 1 PzIVh per every 5 T34 anyway... The most potent (regarding range) are the Nashorn and the Tiger with range 4, using the 88mm modified AAGun (optics), but you won´t have many of those at the same time.

I hope I could more or less explain our decisions, I say again it´s very subjective and I will gladly change the values if it´s really a game-breaker or the mayority agrees my data is wrong.

[Commander Stormwolf]

Greetings,

It should be perceived that such analysis be for the accurization of the mod in terms of history and physics.


About the maneuver values for the different aircraft types - this is of course an area of great subjectivity. I have taken my raw data from TOH, BOB and WiTP, and added my "bonus" based on C. Bergstrom accounts (Black Cross/Red Star and other books) on Eastern Front air warfare.

Aircraft performance and combat results must be separated based upon other factors (pilots, tactical dispositions, etc)
The aircraft stats should be changed to reflect the capabilities of the aircraft itself without consideration of exterior variables.



Yak-1 (MVR28) seemed to be equal to BF109E (MVR29) but was outperformed by BF109Fs. About the oldest types, I-15 and I-16, maybe I was a little harsch on them applying the performance factor based on ROC and top speed - I had to downtown it after Dali cried out he wasn´t getting a single kill,

Maneouver Values should increased for some soviet types (I-16, Yak-1) and decreased for some others.
An effective source may be considered the Eastern Front 1941 mod for Aces Over Europe, it was made some time ago when sources were less confabulated as result of time.
Kills are difficult to score in an I-16, however the airplane itself is difficult to acquire (similar to Ki-43 oscar).



but I think their MVR values now quite reflect their inability to prevail against a first line fighter if the latter´s pilot used performance (not turning) maneuvers against them (as the LW aces did).

Tactical abilities are reflected by pilot experience and must be condiered extrinsic to aircraft qualities. It is certain that deviations from doctrine were carried out by the late war panicked recruits (with a few hours flying time, similar to that of early 1941 VVs).


On top of that I had to vector something else in, that´s on top of Russian low pilot training (8hrs flight time in early42), it was their obsolete tactics (VIC formation vs Finger-4, close escort instead of sweeps, absolute lack of onboard radios,...

False.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/commun ... 12313.html

The same can be said of Japanese aircraft lacking radios however such maneouver penalites on the Zero are not exacted (not to mention 3-plane section also used by Japan, but never penalized).




Russia had excelent MGs and the first AA rockets, brave and selfless pilots, but even though on paper one of their planes was equal to a German one, it´s full potential in my opinion was rarely fully exploited.

By 1944, Once pilot quality had increased, the potential of VVs aircraft was fully realized (in particular the supremacy of late model fighters against the FW-190 which was considered easy prey by 1945).


About the devices, the AFV values are based on JTCS and SPWAW data and if you look closely at those two games you´ll see that even though Russian AFVs have very big (in mm) and potent guns, these were unable to fire at the same distances as smaller caliber German AFV guns. The reason: Optics, Fire Control, gun laying, doctrine, training/experience.


In game terms a PzIVh will have a shot at range 3 at a T34/85, but if it misses, at range 2 it´s no match for the Russian Tank. And then there should be 1 PzIVh per every 5 T34 anyway... The most potent (regarding range) are the Nashorn and the Tiger with range 4, using the 88mm modified AAGun (optics), but you won´t have many of those at the same time.

In terms of muzzle velocity, the PZ IV is idential to the T-34(85) --> improved performance should be determined as result of superior combat experience for the LCU.
The Soviet ISU-100 with the D-10 or the ISU-152 were certainly the equal of their axis counterparts --> the same weapons being used in later generations of tanks such as the
T-55.


I hope I could more or less explain our decisions, I say again it´s very subjective and I will gladly change the values if it´s really a game-breaker or the mayority agrees my data is wrong.

The main defficencies of the soviet army were the result of unit disorganization, poor strategic deployments, logistical voids, and countless other variables that are independent of actual equipment performance (same to be said of French army in 1940) which in many cases were superior to axis counterparts. The realities should be represented such that the mod may be an accurate representation of the military realities and no advantages should be fathomed that cannot be represented by the dichotomy of unit experience.

[Rysyonok]

Quick question - what are the default upgrade paths for German aircraft factories? Can I use the aircraft database to guesstimate them?

[Rysyonok]

How come JSU-152 tank destroyer has effect of 112 while Koenigstiger only gets 20?

[Dali]

AD Rysyonok
How come JSU-152 tank destroyer has effect of 112 while Koenigstiger only gets 20?
 
You visit original WitP, this parameter correct,  M-26 Pershing effect 20  , JSU-152 ef 100.
 
AD russian fighter, I am playing PBEM game, MiG -3 its german fighters killer.
You playing PBEM ?

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Hi. Schleswig-Holstein and Schlesien should have it's 10x150mm guns replaced by 6x105mm DP guns.
And why everyone designates soviet minesweepers by T-... instead of TShch-... (and BTShch-... for big ones or KTShch-... for motor minesweepers)?
And change weird name PZL P-11.f to P.11f (dot between P and 11). Also there in this case was no need to write original manufacturer, especially when these were not produced in PZL factories)

[Dali]

Thanks, repair next patch.

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: Dali

Thanks, repair next patch.

Also, Soviet TB-3 is a transport, not available to any LB airgroup. Yet it comes with 250lb bombs?

[Rysyonok]

I assume that Soviet units are set to be recreated if destroyed, per 15.3.2 of the manual. What city do they come back to?

[Dali]

yes , TB-3 old small bugs, in mods only transport role. Repair nex patch

[Rysyonok]

I found an interesting site for FAF (Finnish Air Force), in case you want to look at it. They got a lot of interesting stats and some awesome images.

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/faf.html

[HerzKaraya]

About the radios I´m not saying that the Russians didn´t have any radios at all, in fact, one of the single most appreciated items from the lend-lease program were the transistor bulbs needed to build them. I´m saying that at least during the first years of the war usually only the squadron commander had an onboard radio, relying on hand signals to transmit orders to the rest.
Anyway, drop me a line to dmenbor@gmail.com and I will send you the excel file we used to set up all the aircraft values, pure maths, no hidden bonuses. We added a performance based formula to correct all MVR values based on the RHS Mod and limited max MVR to 36 so there wasn´t such a huge difference between the planes. Play with it and let me know the results.

About gun values on AFVs - from JTCS (John Tiller Campaign Series)
PzIVH - Hard attack (HA) 28 at range 1 (250m), max range 12 (3000m) value 8
PzV - HA 36@1, max 12
PzVI - HA 32@1, max 16 (4000m)
T34/85 - HA 28 (like PzIVH!!!), max range 6 (1500m) value 6
IS-2 . HA 44, max range 8
Su-100 - HA 46, max range 8 (value 16)
...so, as I said, the device data is based on this info, I admit that, if JTCS data is flawed, mine is too!

In effect late war Russian aircrafts (La-7, Yak9, Yak3, SptfIX) are equal or better than FW190 A-series, and as there were much more and by now piloted by more experienced pilots (except EXPERTEN), using German-Copied tactics, they swept the sky from the LW.

Thank you sincerely for your comments - everything will be looked into!

[HerzKaraya]

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

ORIGINAL: Dali

Thanks, repair next patch.

Also, Soviet TB-3 is a transport, not available to any LB airgroup. Yet it comes with 250lb bombs?

The TB-3 is set up as an transport plane in the database (without bombs) as this was the function it perfomed mostly during the Patriotic War. But a couple of TDBAPs are having TB-3s as their bombers on June 22nd, as this was the original use of this plane. So this squadrons have their TB-3 equipped with 250kg bombs. If you change this squadrons into something else the "removed" TB-3 will go to the pool as transports. If you change another bomber squadron into TB-3, it will get transports!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_TB-3

Something similar happens to SB-2 assigned to RAP (reconnaisance SQ), they don´t have a bomb allotment even though the regular SB-2 in the database has.

It´s intentional - not a bug!

[HerzKaraya]

Thank you for the link to the Finn airforce, hope we have had this before!

[HerzKaraya]

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

I assume that Soviet units are set to be recreated if destroyed, per 15.3.2 of the manual. What city do they come back to?

[>:] now you´ve got me really sleeping....
as per the manual they are rebuilt in Chungking, location 413 in the WitP database, so...
if this feature is hardcoded on that location, we´re in trouble, as 413 is an empty slot in the WIR Mod!

I will adress this in a patch - creating a Russian location 413 somewhere between Mockba and the East corner of the map.
How will affect games in progress??? [&:]

Thank you for the call!

[Bliztk]

I think that they will appear on the next reinforment location, so it`s Karachi or San Francisco slots.

I`m leaning towards Karachi first and SF second, I did a test a while ago so this is from memory and maybe the order is reversed

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

I think that they will appear on the next reinforment location, so it`s Karachi or San Francisco slots.

I`m leaning towards Karachi first and SF second, I did a test a while ago so this is from memory and maybe the order is reversed

Hm... I was planning on pushing on to take that reinforcement location asap... I doubt my Soviet opponent shall disclose it

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Another Polish plane wrongly named. Its PZL.37B not PZL 37.B

[Rysyonok]

Have you had a chance to look at german oil levels? I think they are too low