German 88 flak guns anti-tank role

[Sutefanu]

Hello!

While playing the game I tried to use the german 88 flak as an anti-tank gun, but the game didn't allow me to attack the soviet armour. Is this intentional? or am I missing something?

[stormbringer3]

I've never been able to use them as an anti-tank weapon so I don't think that you're missing something. Mr Wendt gives this game A+ support so he'll probably give a reason why they can't be used in that role.

[Sutefanu]

Ok, let's wait for an explenation. I just found it strange that I couldn't use them in an antitank role. Considering that the flak 88 has good anti-tank stats in game and was also historically used in that role.

[Ronald Wendt]

Hi Sutefanu,

the reason is simple, the plain 8.8 Flak was often mounted on a pedestal and was not able to conduct offensive actions. We are talking about units here, and 5km distances. The 8.8. was capable of limited antitank actions (with a new carriage) , but i have not read about an incident with flak units attacking a defended position of any kind. All reports i know are about flaks defending against approaching tank units.

If you have any historic proof of such an attack (no ambushes etc.), we will change our mind in this regard and see what can be done about it.

[stormbringer3]

Thanks for the reply. What I'm refering to is that if a tank is in range when you haven't moved you can't use an 8.8 to shoot at it. Not move first then shoot. Perhaps its the scale you mentioned that makes this unrealistic. My all time favorite tactical WWII title is Steel Panthers which was released in the 1990s and is still actively supported and still refining weapon stats to be as realistic as possible. In that game the 8.8 is a great anti-tank weapon but it does have a limited amount of AP shells vs. HE shells. However the hex scale is completely different.
Thanks again.

[AngrySwan]

An antitank flak that can fire but not attack tanks would only have one action point. It can either move but not shoot or shoot but not move.
I do not know if this can be done technically because all other antitank units have two action points.

There is a kind of cheat in Panzer Tactics HD, you do not have antitank flaks but the scenario designer has given you an 88 mm antitank gun in 1939. With a bit of imagination you can call that a 88 mm flak. But this flak can move and shoot in one turn...

[Ronald Wendt]

Hi Marechal,

ORIGINAL: Marechal

I do not know if this can be done technically because all other antitank units have two action points.

action points could be reduced to 1, the value is quite flexible. If thats a good choice is another question.

It does cripple the unit but is not solving the problem that its not what those units could do.

There is a reason Germany mounted them onto tank chassis and build a special gun carriage etc.: because they needed it on the offense but could not use the current weapon for it.

I know this is very popular among players to destroy tanks with the 8.8 but it does not fit into the GaW "reality" as long as there is no historical proof for offenses made with those guns. They still are very good to hold positions against a number of enemies.

Regards,

[AngrySwan]

Panzer General 2 has two versions of 88 mm - air defense version (the kind of flak we have in Germany at War) and anti-tank flak, no air attacks but strong ground attack. It is towed so it cannot be "offensive". You bring it to a place in your turn, wait for an enemy counter-attack and fire in your next turn. It cannot "move and fire" in one turn. If you bring it to the front it gets killed because the enemy destroys it before it gets ready for shooting. The good news is, it has range of 2 hexes so you can put an infantry unit in front of it.

The chances of killing enemy tanks with this flak are very little, as you are in open field and the enemy may not come your way. The only exception is Madrid scenario in Panzer General II where you move through a narrow mountain pass but that is an exception, not a rule.

Germany at War is different from Panzer General II in two ways. Larger scale and limited unit slots, so you would not use this anti tank flak because you want to use the slot for something you need more like a StuG or artillery or another tank. The flak can see action in Op Barbarossa because you do not have limited unit slots, but even there it would have few chances to face enemy tanks. The enemy tanks may not come close enough or go the other way. Since the flak has 1 hex range you cannot screen it with other units.

The flak unit is battalion size so it has little firepower on its own. To kill enemy tanks you need several units.

If I had a unit editor I would play the Op Barbarossa campaign to test an anti tank flak. If I want to see an 88 mm flak kill many enemy tanks I would go for Panzer Corps or Panzer General 2 or 3D Assault.

[Ronald Wendt]

Hi Marechal,

we can arrange a secial version for this if you wish. We should discuss that via PM.

Regards,

[terminator]

I find it's a pity to have no version AT of this unit:
"The 8.8 cm Flak 18/36/37/41 (commonly called the eighty-eight) was a German 88 mm anti-aircraft and anti-tank artillery gun from World War II." (Wikipedia)
Many of wargames have both versions.
With the cannon in the horizontal, the 3D model looks like more a version AT than AA :


It could be a good defensive unit for the German army. I find that the AA version is too passive. Other nations should have only the AA version ?

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: terminator

I find it's a pity to have no version AT of this unit:
"The 8.8 cm Flak 18/36/37/41 (commonly called the eighty-eight) was a German 88 mm anti-aircraft and anti-tank artillery gun from World War II." (Wikipedia)
Many of wargames have both versions.
With the cannon in the horizontal, the 3D model looks like more a version AT than AA :


It could be a good defensive unit for the German army. I find that the AA version is too passive. Other nations should have only the AA version ?

In TALONSOFT (empire interactive) EASTER FRONT there is a mission pack with 7 new campaigns 50 new Battles that you can became a master on 8.8 Flak ANTI-TANK; with the original game; also tehre is 6 new nationalitys; (poland hungary finland slovakia italy and romania; WHAT IS GOOD IN THIS GAMES; that the Panzers are the best drawing panzers of any game realized; but the campaing to MOskow you better save your 8.8 flak or you wont pass BIELORRUSSIA.

[AngrySwan]

Hi terminator,

A flak unit that fights tanks (or is used as direct fire artillery) with the rules we have looks like this.

1. Take an 88 mm Flak battalion and upgrade it to regiment.
2. Put it in a place the enemy ABSOLUTELY MUST attack, like your supply base.
3. When the enemy attacks, your flak will automatically fire back during the enemy move. Reinforce it in your move. Repeat as many times as you need.

Based on my observations of Mozhaisk battle this flak can defend a place against one enemy division as long as needed - if replacements and ammo are available. I had a non-core battalion size unit and a regiment must do even better.

In future scenarios there could be situations when the battle starts with an enemy attack of a position defended by flaks.

With my air doctrine flaks do not complain about too much work so maybe this is an idea how to give them more. You could also bring a flak close to an enemy position and see what happens. A flak without transport can still move one hex. Move it to the enemy and see what happens; I have not tried this idea yet but maybe that will work?

Regards,

Marechal

[terminator]

Hi Marechal,

ORIGINAL: Marechal
A flak without transport can still move one hex.

A flak without transport can not move one hex, even if this unit is placed on a road :

[terminator]

With a transport (truck in this example), a German 88 anti-tank could counter-attack locally on a clear ground :

[terminator]

Placed near a road with a transport (truck in this example), the German 88 anti-tank increases its range and becomes a formidable weapon against tanks as it was the case :

[AngrySwan]

Hi terminator,

When I reach Kiev scenario I will try to bring a 88 mm flak to a Soviet bunker. (was posted in the wrong thread)

Of course if you bring a flak on transport close to the enemy the flak will be killed. This must be done in two moves.
1. Bring the flak to a place 2 hexes from the bunker. The flak can be on transport by the end of the move (making sure it cannot be counterattacked.)
2. The flak can move 1 hex so I should be able to move the flak next to the bunker and it will not be mounted on transport by the end of the move.
Then I will see if the bunker tries to attack my flak or not. Normally bunkers attack units standing close to them. Since I have a flak regiment against a battalion of bunker garrison, the flak should destroy the bunker garrison or at least a part of it.

If the flaks work as bunker busters we can also use the AGC flak (the one you get after taking Orsha in Smolensk battle). There are lots of bunkers around Wjasma so if a flak is upgraded to regiment and there is some support behind it the flak should be able to hold the line or kill some bunkers.

I do not kn ow how it will work in practice - this is theory - but when I reach Kiev we will see.

[AngrySwan]

The preliminary results from Kiev:

88 mm flaks can bust bunkers and after upgrading to regiment it is also better against planes. The official Kiev AAR will come later but the results of 2 88 mm flak regiments were - 1 destroyed fighter regiment, 2 bunker busts and 1 defensive battle. No flaks have been lost.

This is a weapon for real experts. The phrase ''88 mm flak is big and clumsy'' does not describe the situation - 88 mm flak is very clumsy and the clumsiest weapon ever. At least in the narrow space like surroundings of Kiev. But once you put it in position (next to a bunker) and place some artillery behind it the 88 mm does kill bunkers (fires back in the enemy move because bunker garrisons attack everything regardless the chances.) I have used 2 regiment size flak units with artillery support (1 Nebelwerfer brigade and 2 regiments of 150 mm guns) and together they can kill a battalion of bunker garrison. Other enemy units may attack a flak or they may not, I guess it depends on the chances.

Fighting enemy tanks may be more difficult because they must go where your flak is standing. How to achieve this? Put your flak in a place the enemy must attack like a supply base. This has not been tested yet; AGS has gone all way to Rostov and reached their objectives for 1941. AGC has a flak and there is a chance to experiment with it. Wjasma is not the best scenario for a flak but Mozhaisk with its tank battles and many bunkers may see some 88 mm flaks in action.

88 mm flak in position, ready for bunker killing. Note the infantry units protecting the flak from possible counterattacks.

[AngrySwan]

88 Flaks in action, 194i, both against air and ground units:

- 1 Flak battalion can either guard one of the bridges to Kowel or the German airfield. Not much chance for action here,
- 1 Flak battalion in Lwow area - can kill a fighter unit if lucky or maybe fill a gap in the line but it is only a battalion and we have little artillery so it is better to keep the Flak behind the lines, unless you assign artillery support to it.
- 2 Flak units near Kiev - their hour of glory; if upgraded to regiments, they can kill Soviet planes, bust bunkers and defend the line (they will need artillery support for that, an unsupported Flak does not last long if attacked by several Soviet units).
- 1 Flak in Smolensk battle, near Orsha - there will be Soviet counterattacks, you can put your flak in front and with some artillery support it may see action.
- 1 Flak unit in Wjasma battle - if upgraded to regiment it can replace one of the stock battalions and defend the base hex in the southern part of the map. No matter how well you attack, a Soviet unit will sneak through and attack the hex. Do not forget to replace losses after every move or you will lose the flak.
- Moscow battle - not sure yet what to do with flaks there, maybe put one on the airfield, the Soviets could attack your airfield with planes. If you use a flak on the front line make sure it will not be attacked by artillery or multiple enemy units.

In Operation Barbarossa you are only restricted by the number of resource points so you may find more situations there.

It is a good idea to upgrade the flak to a regiment and do not leave it unsupported in an important sector.

[AngrySwan]

By the way, what are the heavy Paks that can be added to the Stug units as attachments? Maybe that is where we find the mighty 88 mm in this game?

[terminator]

In Panzer General 2, there were 2 separate units, the 88mm Flak(Anti-Air) and the 8.8cm(Anti-Tank).

The 8.8cm(Anti-Tank):