Some Ideas

[Bigfish]

After playing serveral campaigns - some of them with modded scenarios - i want to talk about the following things:

- Germany should start with 1 or 2 additional subs and 1 destroyer. Also the german subs and warships should start at a higher tech level: Till the mid of 43 the german navy rules the allies. I don't find this situation in the game. With additional naval units this will be possible. The destroyer should be placed in the south atlantic presenting the german "handelsstörer" otherwise there could be placed a battleship presenting the "Graf Spee". Most of the german subs and warships were modern ships only a few years old, most of the royal navy ships are older and not as powerful then the german ones. So german naval units must have a higher tech level then the british.

- About the desperate sittuaion with the german wolfpacks till 43 the british navy are only three months away from running out of fuel. In the game the allies are always at 999 oil. I think this should be corrected - it must be possible that the british run out of fuel. For this the british oil increase must be done by convois - if the germans sunk the tankers then the british units have the historical problem.

- If it must be possible that one nation runs out of fuel, every nation must handeld seperatly with the ressources.

- The germans run out of fuel too fast. Looking at the real situation in wwii it is not possible to do the "Blitzkrieg" with the armoured units. So germany should start with about 100 or 150 more oil and should have i higher oil production.

- The problem with the AI in the med is a well known bug - there are no more words necessary about this.

- Battleship units should not attack subs - this is unrealistic! Major warships will go at flank speed and flee if a sub is in range - so they will not attack by semselfs a sub/wolfpack.

- In 41 the germans attack the ussr not contrary the ussr. So there should be a much greater chance that the ussr do not declare war on germany. This gives a chance of new possibilities like an invasion of the british isle in 41 or 42.

- If you sunk the allied fleet in the atlantic the allies still do nothing more then waiting about the fall of washington and this is quit easy: 6-7 carriers for bombarding the defenders and one tank corps to rush in the city. Some battleships and subs building a defence lane for the troop transports. Why the rest of the allied fleet do not attack the invasion force? Also the allies should do a better defense around washington. Mostly the allied forces still sits at newfoundland waiting till the end.

More to follow...

regards
Bigfish

[Major Victory]

"German navy rules the Allies"?????

What history text are you reading! any time the German navy poked its nose out of port, it either got heavily damaged or sunk!! I assume you mean the German subs played havoc with merchant shipping until 1943?

I think the naval part of the game is handled quite well. While German subs certainly were a serious threat, once the Allies invested in ASW and land based air cover etc, their effectivness went kaput.

I think you could make a case for a extra German Destroyer, but then so could the Allied player as I think of the countless Corvettes, Frigates and Escort Carriers that might warrant a counter or 2. (not to mention, how to represent the fact that the allies eventually had complete North Altantic air cover by mid war)

[targul]

I also think 2 more subs would be appropriate.  A destryer would also make the navy much more realistic.  The tech for the Battleship should be significantly above the Allies.  The Axis Battleships where nothing to mess with.  They outgunned all of the Allied ships at that time.
 
I would also suggest dropping the point cost of subs to 60 from the present 70.  This will present the much better sub vs convoy damage during the period.
 
Battleships should be the only ones to provide supply for units without a port.  Battleships should be the only ships that can bombard coastal hexes.  I agree Battleships simply do not care the correct guns for sub attacks so they should not attack subs.  Destroyers only role should be convoy protection.  They can attack Battleships but they would be very poor at it. 
 
Aircraft carriers should have there land sightings reduced to coastal or 1 hex only.  Air if at all possible should be seperate from the carrier itself ie killing the air should not effect the ship and naval attacks should effect the ship not the air but the quantity of air should not be allowed to be larger then the ship.

[Major Victory]

I recall that the Bismarck was sunk!! I guess the royal navy was'nt half bad. Thr German navy barely ruled the Baltic.

[Bigfish]

@Major Victory

Did you ever read books about ww2? The royal navy needs their hole(!) fleet for hunting one(!) german battleship called Bismarck. And they were not able to sunk the ship till the crew opened the sea valves. Watch the documentation about the Bismarck made by James Cameron - only a few shells really hit the Bismarck not able the sink this ship.

Lots of british warships waiting in Scapa Flow and do nothing then waiting if a german battleship "poked its nose out of port". And in the early years of the war it were the royal navy ships witch runs toward the bottom. Think about Convoy PQ17 to Murmansk. Think about the Graf Spee. Think about HMS Glorius. Think about the Tirpitz - the british have to design special bombs for thinking this ship(!). If the game will show the real facts of the ships and the player useses the ships more active then germans in ww2 - then the british navy is going to have a real big problem. And this is what i mean: When playing this game i still miss this overhelming advantage of the german navy. This have to be fixed!

I think of the countless Corvettes, Frigates and Escort Carriers that might warrant a counter or

Yes, right, but not sooner then mid of 43! I was writing about 39 to 43!

[Major Victory]

Bottom Line....Royal Navy rules the sea, German navy rules the bottom of the ocean!

It does'nt matter how the Bismarck etc were sunk, the fact is they sunk!!

At no time in WW2 (excluding subs) that the Allies ever had fear of the German surface navy, in fact the most successfull venture the German navy acheived was the "channel dash" when they retreated from Brest back to Germany.

[Bossy573]

I'm thinking Bigfish is talking about a technical superiority, perhaps in gunnery, etc. Don't know enough to comment but the balance of forces seems as it should be. The German navy was pretty weak numbers-wise.

I totally agree about the fuel issue. The Allies running around at 999, even if the Germans take every oil hex on the map, seems silly.

A good solution to the Russian DOW issue would be to make the chance dependent upon how many German units are in the East. If the Germans are tied up with Sea Lion, running through Yugolsavia and Greece and fighting it out in the Mid-East with only a few garrisons in Poland, then the Russians should have a good chance of pouncing on that.

Every once in a while I read that Stalin was weeks away from attacking the Germans in 1941 but that Hitler beat him to the punch. I have yet to see a single shred of documentary evidence to support that contention.

[Major Victory]

With the exception of the civilian contraints, I don't recall the Brits militarally being in short supply of oil in WW2, The americans definatly had no issues in this regard.

The German-Russian war is inevitable, for the Germans to abandon the east front and not garrison properly would absolutly envite soviet incursion.

The axis (both German 7 Japanesse) had serious oil issues, so therefore players must adapt to this reality in game play, if you purchase mega armour & air and move them each turn, you will run out real quick! don;t blame the game, blame yourself.

[IrishGuards]

Play nicely with the other children J ..
M

[SMK-at-work]

There was never any danger of the UK running out of oil - sure there was a shippipng crisis in 1942 (see http://www.familyheritage.ca/Articles/oilarticle.html) but the problem was in Canada - not in the UK - the allies deliberately decided that the available tanker tonnage should be devoted to ensuring the UK had enough supplies at the expense of Canada where oil stockpiles fell to less than 15 days at one point.

In 1941 Britis stocks of oilfell to 4 1/2 million tons....but their maximum storage was only 7 million. (see http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Civil-WarEcon/UK-Civil-WarEcon-10.html, page 257)

Certainly in 1942 economy with oil was required.....but it was by no means a desperate shortage (eg see http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Civil-WarEcon/UK-Civil-WarEcon-10.html page 487 - improvements in the efficiency of internal UK transport meant no extra restrictions were imposed on road haulage)

The obsolete British H class boats still in service in 1939 were quickly phased out and used for training duties, and there is no evidence that their other boats were any worse than the VII class.  The Type II boats were pretty useless too.

Italian boats certainly were - they were slow to dive and used a puff of compressed air to launch torpedoes - sending bubbles to teh surface!!

In any case the lvl 3 organisation of the Germans provides them with a higher tech level than anyone else.

The Graf Spee certainly does NOT rate a whole battleship unit under any circumstances!! It was only a heavy cruiser, it's main effect was in sinking 9 merchant ships and diverting RN resources....which it pretty much failed to do - in any case the RN dispositions on the map already account for all the ships that were in other waters.

[targul]

Actually the RN was quite concerned about the Bismark. It was faster and outgunned any British ship of the time. The British battleship could not venture within range without being damaged. Destroyers where no match. Aircraft carrier at the time where not up to the ones you see in the Pacific.

I have always said the British should have more destroyers but they are no match for the Bismark or any battleship.

I feel the 2 subs are actually not acurrate for the Axis but the inability to really test the British Navy in the Atlantic is obvious. Convoys should be in some jeapordy and they really arent.

The mods all have more and it works extremely well.

[Dave Ferguson]

I thought it was Swordfish torpedo bombers that did for the Bismark, once the steering was crippled the ship was doomed. One battleship and one destroyer is enough for the germans.
The italians are another problem and perform in the game much better than historically.
 
Dave

[Bigfish]

@Major Victory:

You don't Understand: German warships much better then the bristish warships and the game does not reflect this. The RN need their whole fleet for hunting one german ship. The game balance in the early years fails to show this.

It does'nt matter how the Bismarck etc were sunk, the fact is they sunk!

No, for a game design it is very important how the technical facts are. And the fact is the RN was in heavy trouble because the german warships. If the germans had ever tried to build a larger Task Group or doing an coordiante strike with their warships i will not know what could hapens to the RN. But in the game it is necessary to find this aspect of technical advantage. If a game balance needs to cheat by technical facts for a even gameplay then there is something wrong.

... no... fear of the German surface navy...

Where do you living? It was their greatest fear. I repeat any time in Scapa Flow where numerous british ships waiting if a german warship leaves his anchor place. This ships were badly missed in the atlantic battle - Yes this is fear when a fleet of ships do nothing and look at their frinds having serious problems in the atlantic.


@SMK:

I have to reread but in the memoirs of Winston Churchill is a passage he said in the spring of 43 the RN Navy had only enough fuel for three month more. If there was no turning point in 43 the RN could not longer be on action stations like the years before.

@targul:
In September 39 the german had only 57 subs and only 14 of these subs were able to do long range missions in the atlantic. During the hole war the germans could only have one hundred subs in long range missions. Not enough - In the 30s Karl Dönitz said if germany will going at war with Britania they need about 300 subs operational for long range missions.

But with this few subs the germans doing bad things to the merchant ships and the royal navy. In the game these facts are still missing.

[Dave Ferguson]

IIRC in 1939 the germans had 2 battlecruisers with 11 inch guns and the Bismark followed in 1941 followed by the Tirpitz. the british were aware that their ships were older designs which is why they would try to operate in pairs. As the german ships were in germany Scapa Flow was the logical place to base the home fleet. Should the german battle cruisers be technically better with 11 inch guns v the british with 14, 15 or 16 inch guns.
I am not convinced of German technical superiority, in WW2 carriers were the capital ship and battleships were already obsolete. even the japanese uber battleships were sunk by aircraft.
Dont forget that in the game the germans get one battleship for 2 battlecruisers but the british get only 2 for 8+ battleships/battlecruisers, plus numerous cruisers and destroyers are not represented in the game.

[Vypuero]

...and by the time the Bismark and Tirpitz were complete the King George V class was available, which was a very modern design.  I think it is an accurate representation now.  The BB units can't do very much to subs, but they have some DD escort so that is reflected in their ability.
 
I do like the idea of oil in convoys, I had already recommended that idea in the game.  That, plus (as I do in my mod) giving the UK the oil in Iraq (instead of off-map oil) so that it can be lost and to make the ME more important.

[Bigfish]

IIRC in 1939 the germans had 2 battlecruisers with 11 inch guns and the Bismark followed in 1941 followed by the Tirpitz. the british were aware that their ships were older designs which is why they would try to operate in pairs. As the german ships were in germany Scapa Flow was the logical place to base the home fleet. Should the german battle cruisers be technically better with 11 inch guns v the british with 14, 15 or 16 inch guns.

Don't forget the heavy cruisers Hipper and Blücher ready at 39 and the Prinz eugen ready September 40. Also There are three so called Pocket Battleships Deutschland, Admiral Scheer and Admiral Graf Spee also with 11 inch guns.

And yes the german 11 inch guns could mess with british 14 inch guns also the 15 inch guns of the Bismarck even better then the 16 inch guns of the RN. Look at the old DOS game Burning Steel - there is the technical balance between german and british units even better then here.

So with 39 the german navy had the following major warships operational:
2 Battlecruiser: Sharnhorst, Gneisenau
3 (Light) Battlecruiser: Deutschland, Scheer, Graf Spee
2 Heavy Cruiser: Hipper, Blücher

Additional numerous Destroyers.

[Bigfish]

I guess: In the europe theatre aricraft carriers are less important then in the pac. Also the british carriers are not as powerful then the japanese or us carriers.

[Dave Ferguson]

The Graf Spee etc were commerce raiders and any battleship would have soon finished one off, they did not have the armour protection to stand heavy calibre shells. The same for heavy cruisers.
 
The germans get 2 u-boats, a so few were actually available the pocket battleships could be icluded here.
the germans get 1 battleship, this represents 2 battlecruisers, heavy cruisers and escorts, germany does not have enough destroyers to justify a seperate unit.
 
The RN gets 4 battleships to represent the 15 they had in 39 or 16 if KGV was operational. this is almost 4 ships per unit so there is your german superiority. You could argue that the UK should have an additional battleship and 1 carrier rather than 2.
 The italian navy is over represented as well, with 7? ships of which 4 were light WW1 designs and several not operational in 1940!

[Bigfish]

Sorry Dave but you are only a little right. The Graf Spee doing a job like "commerce raiders" but from the design these ships are something between battlecruisers and heavy cruisers. The Graf Spee had the firepower of battlecruisers (11 inch guns) and the armor of heavy cruisers. In the english literature the were often called "Pocket Battleships" in german "Westentaschenschlachtschiffe".

For british cruisers they are a mess so it is ok to call them battlecruisers.

"Commercial raiders" in german called "Handelsstörer" - these are normal merchant ships with one or two 5 inch guns.

With your count 4 ships a unit, there must be two german surface units. With your opinion the Graf Spee units not strong enough for a battleship unit so you can represent them as a destroyer unit.

But i repeat: In the game the battle in the atlantic is not similar to the real one. I think the reason is the underrepresented german navy. So i think this could be corrected with additional units and/or stronger units. I am experimenting with some mods and the result is what i write down here. The germans should have one additional destroyer unit and one or two additional sub units, also the german naval units should start with a higher tech level of 1 or 2 because of the better technologies of these ships.

[Dave Ferguson]

Well a british heavy and 2 light cruisers managed to neutralize the Graf Spee in 1939 and I reckon the Kriegsmarine knew they were not capital ships and used them as commerce raiders. The 80mm belt armour would not stand up to heavy calibre shells, e.g the 15inch on british battlecruisers.

dave