MWIF Game Interface Design

[mlees]

ORIGINAL: amwild

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I was thinking, perhaps I could remove the sub column, since they would rarely be part of a task force. I could then create a varation of a task force, called a Wolfpack that would be composed exclusively of submarines. A wolfpack could be a named gourp of submarines that travel together as a group. Or is that completely unnecessary?

Considering that a task force is nothing more to the game than a convenient UI handle by which to move naval forces as a group, my preference would be to have only one type of Task Force that the player can call anything he wants, e.g.: "TG1.0", "Wolfpack 1", "Big nasty collection of ships", "Wallowing bait", or whatever... Having different types of handle for different types of naval vessel seems unnecessary.

On the other hand, if a task force had some tangible game effect, I would almost say that submarines shouldn't be in one at all. A wolfpack was not really an official formation, but a more-or-less ad-hoc group of subs that congregated in an area to prey on some big, hapless convoy. A "task force" is effectively a group of ships in some sort of formation, and submarines don't always hold formation so well...

I wouldn't name your TF (If Shannon decides to allow us to be able to label TF counters) "Wallowing Bait", as I suspect that you opponent will probably be able to see the name as well... [:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: mlees

ORIGINAL: amwild

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I was thinking, perhaps I could remove the sub column, since they would rarely be part of a task force. I could then create a varation of a task force, called a Wolfpack that would be composed exclusively of submarines. A wolfpack could be a named gourp of submarines that travel together as a group. Or is that completely unnecessary?

Considering that a task force is nothing more to the game than a convenient UI handle by which to move naval forces as a group, my preference would be to have only one type of Task Force that the player can call anything he wants, e.g.: "TG1.0", "Wolfpack 1", "Big nasty collection of ships", "Wallowing bait", or whatever... Having different types of handle for different types of naval vessel seems unnecessary.

On the other hand, if a task force had some tangible game effect, I would almost say that submarines shouldn't be in one at all. A wolfpack was not really an official formation, but a more-or-less ad-hoc group of subs that congregated in an area to prey on some big, hapless convoy. A "task force" is effectively a group of ships in some sort of formation, and submarines don't always hold formation so well...

I wouldn't name your TF (If Shannon decides to allow us to be able to label TF counters) "Wallowing Bait", as I suspect that you opponent will probably be able to see the name as well... [:D]

I intend to display the TF units as single counters on the screen and give everyone the ability to expand a TF counter into a TF display/form to review the contents. Only the owner will be able to change the name and composition of the task force though.

[composer99]

I'm liking the task force interface.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99

I'm liking the task force interface.

I would love the task force interface to have a art background showing a Task Force at Sea.
The Art could be different from country to country.
Should be like greyed out, or like behind a transparent veil, so that it does not eat the foreground information (the counters).

[Ballista]

I like the way the TF screen is working out, as that was one of my biggest problems with CWIF. I have an opponent who I know will name his TF things like "Fluffy Bunny Muffins" and such because he knows that it irks me so. Ah, the psychological part of MWIF comes to the fore...... [:)]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Today's task.
============
Declaring War SubPhases
(as of June 8, 2007)

Overview

Rather than have separate phases for declaring war (pDeclareWar), setting up reserves (pReserves), and setting up minor country units (pSetupMinor), I have decided to subsume the last two into the first, by creating subphases for the declare war phase (pDeclareWar). In working with the program structure used in CWIF, I’ve had numerous problems for which it was difficult to write patches. In particular the branching logic of proceeding from one phase to the next jumped out of sequence to the ‘phases’ for setting up reserves and minor country units. Later it jumped back to the declare war phase, in order to pick up where it had left off.

In addition, CWIF merged the Align Minor Countries and Declare War phases into one form where the players could make those decisions in any order they desired. RAW is not that lenient and has a rigid set of steps that are suppose to be followed. So, the change to add a sequence of subphases for the pDeclareWar phase accomplishes two goals: it corrects the sequence of play to conform to RAW, and it simplifies processing of the declaration of war steps.

Here are the subphases (TDOWSubPhase) I’ll use in MWIF:

∙ DspDOWMajor Major powers on the phasing side may declare war on other major powers. There is a separate form just for making this decision. If it is not possible for one or more of the phasing major powers to DOW on another major power, then that/those phasing major powers are not be asked to make any decisions during this subphase. For instance, that is the case in the Barbarossa and Guadalcanal scenarios as well as scenarios that start after all major powers are already at war with each other.

∙ DspDOWMinor Major powers on the phasing side may declare war on minor countries. This is similar to the previous phase but the targets of the DOWs are exclusively minor countries. It has it own form.

∙ DspUSEntry Once the previous two subphases have been completed by all major powers on the phasing side, a check is made to see if the USA has just DOWed another country. The sequence is: (1) DOW by the USA on major powers, (2) DOW by other phasing major powers on major powers, (3) DOW by the USA on minor countries, and lastly, (4) DOW by other phasing major powers on minor countries. This sequence is important because of the various restrictions on and consequences of a USA DOW. Die rolls and other events take place in this subphase related to US Entry Actions effect on drawing, placing, moving, and removing US Entry markers. The results of this phase are displayed to the players for their information.

∙ DspNeutralityPacts A major power on the phasing side may propose to re-confirm a neutrality pact with a major power on the non-phasing side.

∙ DspReserves If a country that was the target of a DOW has reserve units, it is given the option to call them out and place them on the map at this time.

∙ DspSetupAttackedMinor If a minor country was the target of a DOW, then the controlling major power on the other side is chosen and the minor country’s units are placed on the map.

∙ DspAlignMinor Major powers on the phasing side may align minor countries. A separate form is used for this subphase.

∙ DspSetupAlignedMinor If a minor country was aligned, then its units are placed on the map by the controlling major power.

∙ DspJapOccupation At times during the game, Japan has the option of occupying French Indo-China and Madagascar. Those decisions are made during this subphase. A separate form is used for this decision.

∙ DspNone This is merely a value to be used for the DOWSubPhase variable when the phase is something other than pDeclareWar.


=============
Comments?

[npilgaard]

Looks good, and well-thought-out.

[Froonp]

DspReserves If a country that was the target of a DOW has reserve units, it is given the option to call them out and place them on the map at this time.

Reserves are also called by the Major Power that declares war on anoother major power, not only the one who is the target of the DoW.

DspAlignMinor Major powers on the phasing side may align minor countries. A separate form is used for this subphase.

Only one Minor Country per Major Power per impulse.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

DspReserves If a country that was the target of a DOW has reserve units, it is given the option to call them out and place them on the map at this time.

Reserves are also called by the Major Power that declares war on anoother major power, not only the one who is the target of the DoW.

DspAlignMinor Major powers on the phasing side may align minor countries. A separate form is used for this subphase.

Only one Minor Country per Major Power per impulse.

Thanks, I had missed that.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I am working on rewriting the code for subphases during the DOW phase and a couple of things came up.

1 - Currently the Japanese Closure of the Burma Road (political) is part of the DOW phase. In the rules it's not specified when the Japanese can do this, but I believe leaving it in the DOW Phase is as good a place as any. I'll make it part of the DOW JapaneseOccupation subphase which includes the Occupy Indo-China and Madagascar decisions for the Japanese.

2 - I am going to move the USSR occupies Eastern Poland and Baltic States out of the DOW Phase and instead make it pop up whenever the USSR moves a unit into those places (to make it conform to RAW).

3 - I am going to leave the CW adds Polish units to its force pool (MECH/MOT and interned Polish units) as part of the DOW Phase. I could put it in the Production Phase, but since it is already in the DOW Phase, I see no overwhelming need to relocate it.

4 - I am confused as to what the Polish interned units are. The naval units are out, since there's no ports in Eastern Poland. Can land units be interned? The rules do not mention it directly. If so, it appears that any Polish land unit in Eastern Poland when the USSR enters it, goes into the Internment Pool and is made available to the CW for inclusion in the CW Force Pool once Germany and the USSR are at war. Interning the air units is unclear to me as well. I could: (1) treat them the same way I just described for the land units, or (2) treat them as described for other interned air units, with the CW getting the pilot immediately and the air unit itself being destroyed, or (3) give the CW the pilot immediately and intern the air unit for addition to the CW force pool later [though why the CW would ever want a Polish air unit I don't know].

Comments?

[lomyrin]

Having the choices for E Poland and the Baltic States appear in the DoW phase can serve as a reminder that this action has not yet been taken.
 
Land and air units can be interned as I understand it.  If into a neutral Lithuania the pilots immediately go to the CW reserve pool. If into Russia the units only become available after Germany and Russia are at war with each other.
 
I am not sure land units into Lithuania, have never seen it done that way either.
 
Lars
 
 

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
1 - Currently the Japanese Closure of the Burma Road (political) is part of the DOW phase. In the rules it's not specified when the Japanese can do this, but I believe leaving it in the DOW Phase is as good a place as any.

I disagree. Japanese Closure of the Burma Road (political) can be done anytime. The best moment for this is just after the US Entry step, and before the Production step, so that the US can not use the increase in US entry for other action choice, nor reopen it using their us entry action, and the RP thus stopped cannot be used for production.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Having the choices for E Poland and the Baltic States appear in the DoW phase can serve as a reminder that this action has not yet been taken.

Land and air units can be interned as I understand it.  If into a neutral Lithuania the pilots immediately go to the CW reserve pool. If into Russia the units only become available after Germany and Russia are at war with each other.

I am not sure land units into Lithuania, have never seen it done that way either.

Lars

Polish land units would not be allowed entry into Lithuania (it is neutral).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
1 - Currently the Japanese Closure of the Burma Road (political) is part of the DOW phase. In the rules it's not specified when the Japanese can do this, but I believe leaving it in the DOW Phase is as good a place as any.

I disagree. Japanese Closure of the Burma Road (political) can be done anytime. The best moment for this is just after the US Entry step, and before the Production step, so that the US can not use the increase in US entry for other action choice, nor reopen it using their us entry action, and the RP thus stopped cannot be used for production.

Having the option to do something 'anytime' is not really feasible. Having the Japanese player able to interrupt another player's decision making process and insert the Closure of the Burma Road would require hundreds of checks in the code for this single little decision. It would be best if it occurred when the Japanese player is already the decision maker for something else. Otherwise you have this constant stream of questions going to the Japanese player as to whether he wants to close the Burma Road (are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Having the option to do something 'anytime' is not really feasible. Having the Japanese player able to interrupt another player's decision making process and insert the Closure of the Burma Road would require hundreds of checks in the code for this single little decision. It would be best if it occurred when the Japanese player is already the decision maker for something else. Otherwise you have this constant stream of questions going to the Japanese player as to whether he wants to close the Burma Road (are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?).

Well, as the most convinient moment to do that is after the us entry phase and before the production phase, maybe you could have it proposed there.

Also, can't the Japanese have a special button that when they activate it, the road is closed at the end of the step when the button was clicked ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2 - I am going to move the USSR occupies Eastern Poland and Baltic States out of the DOW Phase and instead make it pop up whenever the USSR moves a unit into those places (to make it conform to RAW).

Good decision.

3 - I am going to leave the CW adds Polish units to its force pool (MECH/MOT and interned Polish units) as part of the DOW Phase. I could put it in the Production Phase, but since it is already in the DOW Phase, I see no overwhelming need to relocate it.

4 - I am confused as to what the Polish interned units are. The naval units are out, since there's no ports in Eastern Poland. Can land units be interned? The rules do not mention it directly.

They can, but they are interned, so are destroyed.
The rules does mention it.
*****************************************
19.1 Neutral minor countries
(...)
Option 58: (Internment) A minor country unit can move or rebase into a neutral minor country. A unit that does that is destroyed (PiF option 28: but any pilot survives).
*****************************************
So a Polish land / air or naval unit can enter a neutral port. It is then destroyed, and the pilot survives, so the controlling major power pilot count is immediately increased by 1.

If so, it appears that any Polish land unit in Eastern Poland when the USSR enters it, goes into the Internment Pool and is made available to the CW for inclusion in the CW Force Pool once Germany and the USSR are at war.

This is right :
*****************************************
19.5.1 Eastern Poland
(...)
Any Allied (except Soviet) units there are destroyed. They are removed from the game (internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war, at which point they may be added to the Commonwealth force pool if the Commonwealth player so desires.
*****************************************

Interning the air units is unclear to me as well. I could: (1) treat them the same way I just described for the land units, or (2) treat them as described for other interned air units, with the CW getting the pilot immediately and the air unit itself being destroyed, or (3) give the CW the pilot immediately and intern the air unit for addition to the CW force pool later [though why the CW would ever want a Polish air unit I don't know].

IMO, it is 14.6.4 that govern this area of the game :
*****************************************
14.6.4 Pilot deaths
(...)
Option 58: (Internment) A minor country aircraft unit can rebase into a neutral minor country. An aircraft unit that does that is destroyed. (PiF option 28: but the pilot survives).
*****************************************

19.1 says that interned units are destroyed, and pilots survive (immediately added to the controlled's major power pilot track).
14.6.4 basicaly says the same thing.
19.5.1 is differing, but it is also a special case of Russian Internement.

So for me the answer is (2) without ambiguity.

Only if a Polish Air unit was in the Eastern Poland Area when the Russians enter it (and grab it) would 19.5.1 matter for the Polish Air Unit. I would say that in this case, the pilot is only added to the controlling major power pilot track when Russia & Germany are at war. The rationale is simply that the Russians only liberated the Polish when they ere at war with the Germans, and kept them in gulags before that.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Having the option to do something 'anytime' is not really feasible. Having the Japanese player able to interrupt another player's decision making process and insert the Closure of the Burma Road would require hundreds of checks in the code for this single little decision. It would be best if it occurred when the Japanese player is already the decision maker for something else. Otherwise you have this constant stream of questions going to the Japanese player as to whether he wants to close the Burma Road (are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?).

Well, as the most convinient moment to do that is after the us entry phase and before the production phase, maybe you could have it proposed there.

Also, can't the Japanese have a special button that when they activate it, the road is closed at the end of the step when the button was clicked ?

Or why not have the Japanese player have a special item in the right click menu when he right clicks any hex of the Burma Road. This special Item would allow him to close the burma road, with effects taking place immediately.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Having the option to do something 'anytime' is not really feasible. Having the Japanese player able to interrupt another player's decision making process and insert the Closure of the Burma Road would require hundreds of checks in the code for this single little decision. It would be best if it occurred when the Japanese player is already the decision maker for something else. Otherwise you have this constant stream of questions going to the Japanese player as to whether he wants to close the Burma Road (are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?).

Well, as the most convinient moment to do that is after the us entry phase and before the production phase, maybe you could have it proposed there.

Also, can't the Japanese have a special button that when they activate it, the road is closed at the end of the step when the button was clicked ?

Or why not have the Japanese player have a special item in the right click menu when he right clicks any hex of the Burma Road. This special Item would allow him to close the burma road, with effects taking place immediately.

I'll think about this some more.

Lars' comment about having a reminder appear periodically (on some screen only the Japanese player sees) strikes me as a good idea. Otherwise a novice might not be aware of that as Japan he has the option to close the Burma Road.

Using the map as you suggested is doable but has the problem of being hidden from view unles the Japanese player intentionally or inadvertently right clicks on a Burma Road hex.

I am loathe to add another button to the primary display(s), just for the Japanese player, since a portion of the screen real estate would then have to be reserved for just that purpose. It would be blank for all the other players - and for the Japanese player except when closing the Burma Road is possible.

Essentially this is a political decision and it would be best if it were placed with other political decisions. On the other hand it affects production, which is a good reason for placing it somewhere in the sequence of play related to production.

How about putting it in at the end of the lending phase? After the US/CW commits to lending RPs to China for a turn, Japan has the option of closing the Burma Road (if circumstance permit them to). I think that addresses your concern that the US/CW be stuck with losing any RPs it is sending/lending to China for the turn.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

4 - I am confused as to what the Polish interned units are. The naval units are out, since there's no ports in Eastern Poland. Can land units be interned? The rules do not mention it directly.

They can, but they are interned, so are destroyed.
The rules does mention it.
*****************************************
19.1 Neutral minor countries
(...)
Option 58: (Internment) A minor country unit can move or rebase into a neutral minor country. A unit that does that is destroyed (PiF option 28: but any pilot survives).
*****************************************
So a Polish land / air or naval unit can enter a neutral port. It is then destroyed, and the pilot survives, so the controlling major power pilot count is immediately increased by 1.

If so, it appears that any Polish land unit in Eastern Poland when the USSR enters it, goes into the Internment Pool and is made available to the CW for inclusion in the CW Force Pool once Germany and the USSR are at war.

This is right :
*****************************************
19.5.1 Eastern Poland
(...)
Any Allied (except Soviet) units there are destroyed. They are removed from the game (internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war, at which point they may be added to the Commonwealth force pool if the Commonwealth player so desires.
*****************************************

Interning the air units is unclear to me as well. I could: (1) treat them the same way I just described for the land units, or (2) treat them as described for other interned air units, with the CW getting the pilot immediately and the air unit itself being destroyed, or (3) give the CW the pilot immediately and intern the air unit for addition to the CW force pool later [though why the CW would ever want a Polish air unit I don't know].

IMO, it is 14.6.4 that govern this area of the game :
*****************************************
14.6.4 Pilot deaths
(...)
Option 58: (Internment) A minor country aircraft unit can rebase into a neutral minor country. An aircraft unit that does that is destroyed. (PiF option 28: but the pilot survives).
*****************************************

19.1 says that interned units are destroyed, and pilots survive (immediately added to the controlled's major power pilot track).
14.6.4 basicaly says the same thing.
19.5.1 is differing, but it is also a special case of Russian Internement.

So for me the answer is (2) without ambiguity.

Only if a Polish Air unit was in the Eastern Poland Area when the Russians enter it (and grab it) would 19.5.1 matter for the Polish Air Unit. I would say that in this case, the pilot is only added to the controlling major power pilot track when Russia & Germany are at war. The rationale is simply that the Russians only liberated the Polish when they ere at war with the Germans, and kept them in gulags before that.

Ok, we agree on naval and land.
- Naval units that move into neutral ports are destroyed. This prevents them from being captured.
- Land units that remain in Eastern Poland are interned and are made available for inclusion in the CW force pool once the USSR and Germany are at war. This has the benefit of giving the CW more land units to build.

I still have a lingering doubt about the air units, since the use of the word 'destroyed' is ambiguous. I agree that if the air unit rebases to a neutral minor country that section 14.6.4 applies. But if an air unit is based in Eastern Poland when the USSR occupies it, I believe section 19.5.1 applies. Therein the word 'destroyed' has the meaning of placed in an internment pool.

I am of the opinion that the pilot (only) should be placed in the internment pool and given to the CW as a reinforcement once Germany and the USSR are at war. Technically the air units should be handled like the land units, but I can't see any reason for the CW ever adding one of those terrible Polish air units to its force pool. Might just as well eliminate the decision (and code) from the game.
===========
On another note, should the CW AIO fly all the Polish air units into Lithuania at the first opportunity (in order to give the CW free pilots)? Or is the presence of the Polish air units a signiifcant hindrance to Germany conquering Poland?

[Froonp]

How about putting it in at the end of the lending phase? After the US/CW commits to lending RPs to China for a turn, Japan has the option of closing the Burma Road (if circumstance permit them to). I think that addresses your concern that the US/CW be stuck with losing any RPs it is sending/lending to China for the turn.

It's not bad, but it is less good than the right click command on the Burma Road. The full winged trick also allow to cut the road after the US has already chosen their US Entry Action, so this prevent them from immediately re open it if they are at the right level (24).

Don't forget also that the Burma Road is diplayed in a special way, that will attract attraction all by itself. Also, people aware of WWII might be familliar with the Burma Road importance, and might be attracted by right clicking on it to see what action they can start.
Also, there is the documentation, and the tutorials to show the command to people.