When?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: addo

As the topic suggest when? As most of the members of this forum all I would like is ball park date please.
I know it is a complex game system but it has been a looong time coming I have been following it for at least nine years , date or even a year would be nice.
Cheers.

Welcome to the forum.[:)]

I've sworn off offering release date estimates. In their place I give monthly reports on what has been accomplished. Recently those have included remarks along the line of: "such-and-such is completed".

For instance, of the 60 phases in the sequence of play, I have no reported bugs to fix in 47 phases. Of the 13 where there are still bugs, 7 have just 1 bug remaining. On the negative side, I have 21 reported bugs related to Vichy France and 24 related to Production Planning (e.g., routing resources overseas to factories, or to be saved).

It takes time to grind these bugs down fine enough that they can be brushed away. I spent 6 hours over the past 2 days trying to figure out why saving a screen layout didn't work, while redefining it worked perfectly. Screen Layouts are a feature where you can position and resize various forms on one or more monitors. For instance, you can dedicate one monitor to the detailed map and then use a second monitor for the global map, combat resolution forms, etc. After much analysis and increasing frustration I finally located the problem as a missing extension (SLY). If you saved the screen layout with a new name, the program worked correctly. It was only when you tried to Save using an existing name that the bug occurred. And as I said, using the Redefine feature worked correctly. I always use Redefine, and so do most of the beta testers. But one of the beta testers was executing Save using the current name for the screen layout. Eh, viola, ze bug she appeared!

Why did I spend so much time on this minor item? Well, I thought it would be easy to fix and only take 5-10 minutes. Then as I dug down into the problem, the hole kept getting deeper. On the plus side, the fix resolved 3 reported bugs (I believe).

[bo]

Wow Omnius, I am a jerk, I have limited intelligence, spoiled brat purist, you must have been talking to my wife again only she knows that about me [;)].

One of the problems on posts is that people read into a post only what they want to tear apart, they do not read the whole post. You have only been posting since June 2012 so maybe you missed the AI war 2 or 3 years ago. My exception to your post is the comment of the two or two and a half years that the AI ate up of Steve's time, a wasted time according to you if that is what Steve was actually doing. Your not a beta tester so where did your information come from?

No one ever said any AI is any good, even though Steve will put out a decent AI. I look at the AI as a practice tool, something I can try different tactics against preparing myself to play against the elite board game players that reside on these forums.

If we can lets be a little practical about game play, we have solo play which to tell you the truth I am surprised that it plays so well, we have hot seat but there's no one in my area that plays this type of game they play Combat Mission and COD2. So what does that leave me, PBEM, not practical IMHO.

Aha net play, now lets see Jose lives in Spain, Warspite lives in England, Peter lives in Denmark, Bjorn lives in Sweden, and many more fine posters here but all of these players are five to six hours different from me, not easy to get a game with them due to time zones.

That is how I look at the AI, not as an end all, just a tool. And I would appreciate it if you became a little more civil.

Thank you

Bo

[Centuur]

Denmark? Denmark? I'm living in the Netherlands, Bo... [:-] [:D]

But I agree a little with what you are saying regarding the AI. It might be a tool to learn new players to play WiF.
However, I also agree with Omnius, that AI on wargames tend to end up a total mess, easy to overcome.

AI isn't that important to me too, since I'm going to play the game using Netplay with my buddies around the Netherlands (and hopefully with you some day too, just for fun, you know...).

However, I got the feeling that Steve might give us a big surprise with his AI for the game in a couple of years, because I'm getting the impression that he's done some pretty good thinking about it while coding this game...

[rmdesantis]

I agree as well about the AI - to me, it's not about having a strong opponent, but given the complexity of the game it would allow people (even someone like me who has not played WIF for some years because of my job) to better understand the rules by playing a few turns against an AI that did know the rules. I read the forums each week and I am in awe at the detailed knowledge of people about some of the minutia in the rules currently, and I also see that there are heated debates about the interpretations of those same rules that people have developed/evolved over the years. That's probably to be expected as most people play the game in isolated pockets with friends and have come to a common understanding about how to interpret the rules - even though a similar group in another location might interpret those same rules differently. An efficient AI would, at the very least, bring people together onto a common platform for understanding the finer points of the rules, regardless if the AI was a reasonable opponent.

I know that Netplay is now going to be in the initial release, but for me I was hoping for PBEM. Time differences are a killer for me and I was hoping to use PBEM (along with Netplay when the stars aligned and people could make a common time appointment) to enjoy the game again. I understand that PBEM will be a future enhancement (if it comes at all) which I find disappointing, but I'm not going to fall on my sword over it because the real prize is getting the game - a solid, robust implementation of WIF - out the door and into the hands of eager players.

Mike

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Denmark? Denmark? I'm living in the Netherlands, Bo... [:-] [:D]

But I agree a little with what you are saying regarding the AI. It might be a tool to learn new players to play WiF.
However, I also agree with Omnius, that AI on wargames tend to end up a total mess, easy to overcome.

AI isn't that important to me too, since I'm going to play the game using Netplay with my buddies around the Netherlands (and hopefully with you some day too, just for fun, you know...).

However, I got the feeling that Steve might give us a big surprise with his AI for the game in a couple of years, because I'm getting the impression that he's done some pretty good thinking about it while coding this game...

Denmark, Netherlands what's the difference you all look alike with your Nordic features and wavy blond hair [the girl's][;)] I know you are from Hoorn I just happened to move your village to Denmark, big deal [:D] buddies from the Netherlands, what all two of them [;)] and the biggest insult to me is you saying I will play you "just for fun you know", but everyone else I will play seriously [:-] NICE!

You think you can walk all over me [actually ride tanks over me] you have aggravated me to the point that I will wipe out the Netherlands first instead of Denmark for the first time in my illustrious career as a Panzer commander. The problem with that is My Japanese counterparts will lose the two oil points from the NEI [:@] So for the moment your safe.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: rmdesantis


I agree as well about the AI - to me, it's not about having a strong opponent, but given the complexity of the game it would allow people (even someone like me who has not played WIF for some years because of my job) to better understand the rules by playing a few turns against an AI that did know the rules. I read the forums each week and I am in awe at the detailed knowledge of people about some of the minutia in the rules currently, and I also see that there are heated debates about the interpretations of those same rules that people have developed/evolved over the years. That's probably to be expected as most people play the game in isolated pockets with friends and have come to a common understanding about how to interpret the rules - even though a similar group in another location might interpret those same rules differently. An efficient AI would, at the very least, bring people together onto a common platform for understanding the finer points of the rules, regardless if the AI was a reasonable opponent.

I know that Netplay is now going to be in the initial release, but for me I was hoping for PBEM. Time differences are a killer for me and I was hoping to use PBEM (along with Netplay when the stars aligned and people could make a common time appointment) to enjoy the game again. I understand that PBEM will be a future enhancement (if it comes at all) which I find disappointing, but I'm not going to fall on my sword over it because the real prize is getting the game - a solid, robust implementation of WIF - out the door and into the hands of eager players.

Mike

Hi rmdesantis, you have been around for awhile, [2007] we had some interesting comments 2 years ago about the AI, I do not know if you were involved but they got heated, there was a vote by Steve about the AI and if I remember correctly it was overwhelming in favor of an AI by many of the posters here. The AI is just a crutch for when human players are not available no more no less, now a good AI would be more helpful.

Net play will be very good here but I am having a mental problem with PBEM. My son plays Combat Mission Normandy with PBEM and it works well. But with all the impulses involved in MWIF, I for one do not find it very feasible. If someone with knowledge about PBEM could explain to me and other posters how this might work with this game it would be appreciated.

Bo

[paulderynck]

The concept with PBEM is to have a set of "Standing Orders" that can be edited each turn and accompany the game file so that a lot of the back-and-forth decision-making could be eliminated. Many WiF players are micro-managers though, and then you'd end up exchanging lots of emails. Solitaire, Hot Seat and Netplay are the easiest to implement to start out with.

[Centuur]

I agree with you on PBEM, Bo. WiF is a not a standard you go- I go war game at all. There's a lot of decision making to be done by the non phasing player and PBEM might, even with the short cuts Steve is going to make, not be the way to play this game.
But perhaps were wrong...

Oh. And Bo, I always play for fun. If it gets serious, I've got to pull out the heavy stuff...

Oh, btw Bo, the Japanese isn't going to lose that NEI oil, when you are putting your filthy German boots into my hometown...

[rmdesantis]

All good points about PBEM, but there are times in the game when one player has a lot to do. I don't see any need to be online with others while we are working out our upcoming production, for instance. Being able to do more of the transactional work by PBEM and keeping the Netplay time to when you really need to interact seems the cleanest way I see to play the game. But I appreciate that Netplay is easier to accommodate from a game-play standpoint.

Mike

[bo]

ORIGINAL: rmdesantis

All good points about PBEM, but there are times in the game when one player has a lot to do. I don't see any need to be online with others while we are working out our upcoming production, for instance. Being able to do more of the transactional work by PBEM and keeping the Netplay time to when you really need to interact seems the cleanest way I see to play the game. But I appreciate that Netplay is easier to accommodate from a game-play standpoint.

Mike

PBEM----You are right on Mike, that is a great advantage for us as players if we have little free time or time zone problems, the other advantage is that you can play many multiple games at your own convenience, the disadvantage at least for me is I have enough problems trying to run one game with decent tactics let alone multiple games [;)]

Bo

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: rmdesantis

All good points about PBEM, but there are times in the game when one player has a lot to do. I don't see any need to be online with others while we are working out our upcoming production, for instance. Being able to do more of the transactional work by PBEM and keeping the Netplay time to when you really need to interact seems the cleanest way I see to play the game. But I appreciate that Netplay is easier to accommodate from a game-play standpoint.

Mike

This is what makes the present version on Vassal really good. You can switch back and forth. We usually play in Netplay mode but by 1943 or so when one side is doing almost all Land actions, we quit and let that side do all its moves and then resume online the next time when combats are ready to be declared.

I hope MWiF Netplay will work the same way.

[Edfactor]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The concept with PBEM is to have a set of "Standing Orders" that can be edited each turn and accompany the game file so that a lot of the back-and-forth decision-making could be eliminated. Many WiF players are micro-managers though, and then you'd end up exchanging lots of emails. Solitaire, Hot Seat and Netplay are the easiest to implement to start out with.

I am not going to let some standing order decide when to intercept and where to send defensive ground support for me.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Edfactor

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The concept with PBEM is to have a set of "Standing Orders" that can be edited each turn and accompany the game file so that a lot of the back-and-forth decision-making could be eliminated. Many WiF players are micro-managers though, and then you'd end up exchanging lots of emails. Solitaire, Hot Seat and Netplay are the easiest to implement to start out with.

I am not going to let some standing order decide when to intercept and where to send defensive ground support for me.

Then your PBEM games are going to take a lot of emails. There are 8 air missions in each impulse and at least one of the enemy major powers might send bombers or ATRs that you could intercept.

Your opponent won't know what your standing orders are until after he commits his bombers/ATRs to a mission (the program enforces that rule).

[Edfactor]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Edfactor

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The concept with PBEM is to have a set of "Standing Orders" that can be edited each turn and accompany the game file so that a lot of the back-and-forth decision-making could be eliminated. Many WiF players are micro-managers though, and then you'd end up exchanging lots of emails. Solitaire, Hot Seat and Netplay are the easiest to implement to start out with.

I am not going to let some standing order decide when to intercept and where to send defensive ground support for me.

Then your PBEM games are going to take a lot of emails. There are 8 air missions in each impulse and at least one of the enemy major powers might send bombers or ATRs that you could intercept.

Your opponent won't know what your standing orders are until after he commits his bombers/ATRs to a mission (the program enforces that rule).

I'm fine with that.
95% of my play will be with the AIO, other then that hotseat and netplay are fine. I don't much like PBEM.

Edit: Yes I know its not going to ship with an AIO.

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: bo

Wow Omnius, I am a jerk, I have limited intelligence, spoiled brat purist, you must have been talking to my wife again only she knows that about me [;)].

One of the problems on posts is that people read into a post only what they want to tear apart, they do not read the whole post. You have only been posting since June 2012 so maybe you missed the AI war 2 or 3 years ago. My exception to your post is the comment of the two or two and a half years that the AI ate up of Steve's time, a wasted time according to you if that is what Steve was actually doing. Your not a beta tester so where did your information come from?

No one ever said any AI is any good, even though Steve will put out a decent AI. I look at the AI as a practice tool, something I can try different tactics against preparing myself to play against the elite board game players that reside on these forums.

If we can lets be a little practical about game play, we have solo play which to tell you the truth I am surprised that it plays so well, we have hot seat but there's no one in my area that plays this type of game they play Combat Mission and COD2. So what does that leave me, PBEM, not practical IMHO.

Aha net play, now lets see Jose lives in Spain, Warspite lives in England, Peter lives in Denmark, Bjorn lives in Sweden, and many more fine posters here but all of these players are five to six hours different from me, not easy to get a game with them due to time zones.

That is how I look at the AI, not as an end all, just a tool. And I would appreciate it if you became a little more civil.

Thank you

Bo

Bo,
Now you seem to be more reasonable, a shame you didn't start out that way with me and just complained uncivilly at my valid considerations. My info comes from watching this forum, just because I only started posting here since June of last year doesn't mean I haven't been watching for many years. Only joined the forum after buying some other Matrix games.

It seems you and I have something in common, we use the Artificial Ignorances for practice, learning how to play some new game system. You originally made it sound like your whole life revolved around playing the AI only.

My big question was going to be just how disappointed will you be if the WiF AI isn't up to your expectations? From your first post I figured you'd be mightily disappointed but now it seems you have a more realistic view of the limitations of AI's. The only good thing to come from the long delay is that some fuinctions are ebing improved, like the convoy system that was such an AI mess in the original ADG version. I had no problem that it lacked an AI.

So yes we both use the AI to learn how to play a game system and how to game the system best testing out certain strategies. After that I just play solo, that way I don't have to rely on others to play quickly or they expecting it from me.

I'm glad that you have become more civil, now I can return that favor. Maybe we'll find other similarities now that we're both being civil. I just want to see the game get released so I can enjoy playing it, same as everyone else who has been waiting for so long.
Omnius

[bo]

Okay Omnius peace, I probably reacted poorly in your eyes but the AI has been a sore point with me, and it exploded 3 years ago on these forums, I am on the MWIF beta testing team and even I'm not sure how much effort Steve has put into the AI.

I know the opinion of all my board playing friends here about the AI, they prefer other game modes and I understand that. But there is a huge world of game players out there not only on Matrix but also on Battlefront. I will go out on the limb and say that 80% of them would prefer an AI, very good, good, or passable [whatever that might mean]. You were right about one thing I will be disappointed if the AI is not up to Steve's standards.

Now as a beta tester I am limited as to what I can say, but I say this with my heart and soul, this is without a doubt the most awesome computer war game that these old eyes has ever seen bar none and I have played most of them but of course now they are sitting on my computer shelf including Gary Grigsby's War in the East.

IMHO it is the first computer war game that I can enjoy in solo option which before this I have always had disdain for because it just did not work for me. I believe it will take me six months or more before I can compete with the net play option against experienced board game players and even then maybe not. I am that person who looks at that pitcher of ale that is half full and sees it as half empty. [;)]

So I say this without a grain of salt, this game will set the bar so high and the standards so high that it can only benefit us gamers because from now on we will expect nothing less from these other war game companies and their programmers. Sorry for being so long winded.

Bo

[Centuur]

Bo, I think you're rating yourself to low and others to high...

6 months of training in solitaire will get you absolutely nowhere in this game. The only way to learn this, is to play it against human opponents. Solitaire will not do, I'm afraid. Solitaire will make you learn the basics and that's it. You still make the mistakes and don't get trashed for it during solitaire playing. So find human opponents, the moment this comes unto the market and start trashing them (and be prepared to get trashed, too...).

WiF is a game in which players always make mistakes. There isn't any game of WiF in which I didn't say at one point to myself: "did I do that? Why? Am I that stupid?".

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Bo, I think you're rating yourself to low and others to high...

6 months of training in solitaire will get you absolutely nowhere in this game. The only way to learn this, is to play it against human opponents. Solitaire will not do, I'm afraid. Solitaire will make you learn the basics and that's it. You still make the mistakes and don't get trashed for it during solitaire playing. So find human opponents, the moment this comes unto the market and start trashing them (and be prepared to get trashed, too...).

WiF is a game in which players always make mistakes. There isn't any game of WiF in which I didn't say at one point to myself: "did I do that? Why? Am I that stupid?".

You people from Hoorn just don't get it, [&:] I have never lost in solitaire, I am 7 and 0, undefeated, [&o] why should I risk that record against a human opponent [:-] on second thought maybe Steve should make a poor AI that way maybe I can stretch my unbeaten record to 20 and 0 maybe even 30 and 0.

When you play an AI or yourself in solitaire and you make a mistake [:@] I have found that the best solution is to just turn the computer off before game save and play another day. [;)]

Bo

[composer99]

bo:

I have never lost in solitaire, I am 7 and 0, undefeated,

And that despite the skill, guile, and devilish cunning of your formidable opponent. [;)]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: composer99

bo:

I have never lost in solitaire, I am 7 and 0, undefeated,

And that despite the skill, guile, and devilish cunning of your formidable opponent. [;)]

composer99 it is the epitome of all war game playing when your peers [you composer] recognize and appreciate a person like myself with all of the above attributes, there are a few more but being so humble I will leave them unsaid
[for the moment] [ I like devilish[;)]]

Bo