When?

[CrusssDaddy]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

After reading all the bull that michaelbaldur wrote, his very last line is the most telling...."embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve."

I got news for you asshole....neither you, I, nor anyone else deserves anything!

I think you're a little confused about who wrote the bull (and is, presumably, the asshole): michaelbaldur's on your team. But in any case, you should have a little more esteem for yourself. Once again, I'd love to hear responses that discuss content, not fanboy ad hominems.

Content:
CWIF contained only 3 scenarios.
CWIF had a much shorter list of optional rules & WIF add-ons.
CWIF graphics were designed to run under Win98; they had no resemblance to the WIF FE map. The counters had no bitmap graphics for individaul units.
CWIF had two pages of doumentation (a TXT file). There was no documentation on the game itself other than a reference to the ADG PDF file of the rules.
CWIF was only for play on 1 computer.

Your initial release is only going to have four scenarios with AI, which is the most important part for me. Your comments about the difficulty of the AI makes your plan to release additional scenario AIs on a monthly basis seem very optimistic, and you only have to look at HOI3 for evidence of misplaced optimism in the face of a difficult AI task.

Optional rules are window dressing, stick to fundamentals. That's what follow-up patches should be for.

Graphics are window dressing, were talking about a hex-and-counter wargame, not HALO.

We all learned to play the beta with just that flimsy little .txt, so how crucial can it be?

After seven years, 'MWiF' is for play on 0 computers, so I see only a step backward.

[CrusssDaddy]

michaelbaldur thanks for the offer, I appreciate you staying in a positive frame of mind despite our being on opposite ends of this argument. Despite my inability to buy the rights, as others have helpfully suggested, money is not the issue. the product is the issue.

And I'd still love to hear your perspective on the current version, unless confidentiality agreements or the like prevent you from doing so.

[CrusssDaddy]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Crusss:

If you have bothered to go back through this thread to cut and paste hoped-for release dates of MWiF, then you might also have read the various explanations as to why the development programme implemented by Matrix is appropriate for this game (among other reasons, its niche-market status). If you disagree, perhaps you can explain to us how WiF can appeal to a large enough market to justify the expense of a team of developers and support personnel and the recruitment of dozens/hundreds of testers to get it out the door more quickly?

Since you are the one making the claim that the rights to WiF need to be "turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game" it is up to you to demonstrate that such companies exist. You are also the one claiming that "CWiF [...] is being held hostage by Matrix" so it is your responsibility to provide evidence that this is true. The thousands of forum posts here show that Steve and the various contributing volunteers have been working steadily at bringing the game to completion, so I am not certain how you can justify the 'hostage' comment.

With regards to your comment: "After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI." Once again, this is your claim. It is up to you to prove you are right. It is not up to current beta testers to prove you wrong.

It is all well and good to complain about delays in the release of the game, but unless the people doing so are able to articulate superior alternatives to the current manner in which MWiF is being developed, then the developers and us 'fanboys' have no reason to do anything but dismiss it as bellyaching. Personally speaking, I don't have anything against bellyaching, but unless there is more than just 'this game is taking too long to come out!' behind it then why should I, or anyone else, take it seriously?

And finally, CrusssDaddy, you appear to be mis-applying the ad hominem fallacy. Since you do not appear to have come forward with any "content" to discuss, it is hard to see how anyone who has disparaged you is distracting the rest of us from your arguments via their insults.

My evidence is this thread, and a development process that has dragged on for seven years, with multiple missed deadlines and unmet release expectations, and the latest project update showing no light at the end of the tunnel. That speaks to me of a broken and failed process. Matrix has devoted completely insufficient resources to this product, Shannon is incapable of doing this by himself, and a gang of ad hoc volunteers is no substitute for a genuine development team.

With the abject failure of HOI3, and legions of pissed off Paradox customers looking for a strategic WWII fix, there is a unique opportunity for WiF to flourish. But that's not going to happen with it in the hands of a disinterested publisher and an overwhelmed developer.

[Cheesehead]

CrussDaddy

Sounds to me like you are frustrated because you can't play WiF. Maybe your local group broke up or maybe you never had a group to play FtF with? I can understand this. I'd be feeling the same way if I couldn't play this great game. But I can, and so can you as long as you have a computer with 2meg of RAM and a decent internet connection. You can play WiF on Vassal. You can play live online or you can play PBEM. Both work great. Most of us play a combination of the two. The WiF module was created by Ken Griffiths. It is really no different than playing in your buddies basement except that you move the counters by click and drag with your mouse. It doesn't take up a whole room. You don't have to worry about the cat messing up your table. You can play people all over the world (although similar time zones are usually easier to manage.) The games actually go faster than when you meet with a group once a week or once a month because you can play every day (provided you have an understanding wife). I've played dozen of these games, mostly by PBEM. I'm currently in a Vassal game that is at the end of JF45 with Jerome. Started that one 13 months ago. Ken and I are playing a game we started in November that is already in MA42! In many ways I prefer Vassal games to FtF. Especially after the two snow storms I had to drive through to get back from local game, 70 miles from my home. I look forward to MWiF when it is completed. It will make a few things easier. And I look forward to being able to try some weird strategies against the AI, even if the AI is not competitive.... just to see how they play out. I'm also looking forward to playng China on the European scale. But it is easy to be patient because I am having so much fun playing WiF on vassal. Give it a try. You can usually find opponents on the WiFlist. I could even direct a few people your way if needed.

Cheers

John

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy





I think you're a little confused about who wrote the bull (and is, presumably, the asshole): michaelbaldur's on your team. But in any case, you should have a little more esteem for yourself. Once again, I'd love to hear responses that discuss content, not fanboy ad hominems.

Content:
CWIF contained only 3 scenarios.
CWIF had a much shorter list of optional rules & WIF add-ons.
CWIF graphics were designed to run under Win98; they had no resemblance to the WIF FE map. The counters had no bitmap graphics for individaul units.
CWIF had two pages of doumentation (a TXT file). There was no documentation on the game itself other than a reference to the ADG PDF file of the rules.
CWIF was only for play on 1 computer.

Your initial release is only going to have four scenarios with AI, which is the most important part for me. Your comments about the difficulty of the AI makes your plan to release additional scenario AIs on a monthly basis seem very optimistic, and you only have to look at HOI3 for evidence of misplaced optimism in the face of a difficult AI task.

Optional rules are window dressing, stick to fundamentals. That's what follow-up patches should be for.

Graphics are window dressing, were talking about a hex-and-counter wargame, not HALO.

We all learned to play the beta with just that flimsy little .txt, so how crucial can it be?

After seven years, 'MWiF' is for play on 0 computers, so I see only a step backward.

CWIF is for sale from ADG. Here is a screen shot of the map taken from the version of the game I received when I started work on MWIF in July of 2005.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

While it would be too time consuming to duplicate the CWIF scrren shot exactly, here is a comparable one for MWIF taken today.

[lomyrin]

CWiF, which I also still play around with, stopped at RAW6. MWiF is incorporating the latest RAW7 and includes all the countersheet updates and units that have been added or changed since the RAW6 days many years ago. 
 
CWiF also had quite a few bugs and rules omissions at it's last version available.
 
That is a considerable amount of real new content.
 
Lars

[CrusssDaddy]

Yes thank you, but I don't need screenshots - I told you that I play the old beta on a weekly basis, and despite my rare (until now) posts, I have kept up with all of the discussions, the Barbarossa AAR, etc. The old graphics are perfectly fine, and for over seven years I have played them without complaint. The new graphics are nice, and your work is evident, but after seven years they remain part of an incomplete and off-the-rails game that I cannot play.

[bo]

I thought maybe Crusssdaddy could have said what I have been feeling all along nicer, but I think the niceness has run its course. I can imagine what all the good olde boys who back Steve and Matrix to the hilt will say, which will be their typical defending of the very long delayed and way overdue MWIF. Not to be be too negative but the offer to buy the game in an above post is a sure bet that that poster will not have to put out any money in 2010. I believe with my heart and soul that the mollycoddling by a lot of you posters that has gone on here for the last five years has caused all the angst that everyone is starting to feel about now, and anyone here who says that there not fed up in their heart with delay after delay of this conversion to the computer is a deep profound PROCRASTINATOR. And after reading that last report from Steve I believe this will not be done this year, I do hope I am proven wrong for the sake of all the very fine posters and game players who try very hard to hold their emotions in check about what is going on here with Steve and Matrix and the terrible delays, maybe some of you fine gentlemen that post here should read a pamphlet by Thomas Paine called "Common Sense" and common sense tells me that something is very wrong here about this conversion, jump all over me if you want I expect it but please use your common sense about this before you blast me.

Bo

[Anendrue]

ORIGINAL: bo

I thought maybe Crusssdaddy could have said what I have been feeling all along nicer, but I think the niceness has run its course. I can imagine what all the good olde boys who back Steve and Matrix to the hilt will say, which will be their typical defending of the very long delayed and way overdue MWIF. Not to be be too negative but the offer to buy the game in an above post is a sure bet that that poster will not have to put out any money in 2010. I believe with my heart and soul that the mollycoddling by a lot of you posters that has gone on here for the last five years has caused all the angst that everyone is starting to feel about now, and anyone here who says that there not fed up in their heart with delay after delay of this conversion to the computer is a deep profound PROCRASTINATOR. And after reading that last report from Steve I believe this will not be done this year, I do hope I am proven wrong for the sake of all the very fine posters and game players who try very hard to hold their emotions in check about what is going on here with Steve and Matrix and the terrible delays, maybe some of you fine gentlemen that post here should read a pamphlet by Thomas Paine called "Common Sense" and common sense tells me that something is very wrong here about this conversion, jump all over me if you want I expect it but please use your common sense about this before you blast me.

Bo

I see that you edited your post from calling everyone who disagreed with you from a LIAR to a PROCRASTINATOR. Those of us who receve this thread by email know what you put in your original post; but we also just consider the source.

[Arctic Blast]

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

[CrusssDaddy]

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

Diminished expectations become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Matrix thinks WiF is not fit, from a projected sales point of view, to receive a proper allocation of resources, then that is simply additional proof of my contention that they are the wrong publisher for WiF, and their development 'plan' is a failure engineered and destined to live down to their expectations.

WiF is not an unknown with no visibility. It is a respected and well-regarded game with a quarter-century legacy behind it. Have some pride and confidence in the property, and certainly don't settle for a half-assed effort from an indifferent publisher. Don't enable failure with, "Oh wow, everyone's working so hard someday it'll be great, but we can't expect anything... we're just a little bunch of little pissants and all..." No market? C'mon, grow a pair. In the seven years CWiF has languished, Paradox has released HOI, HOI2, and HOI3 - that's a three-part franchise created from whole cloth! How many Gary Grigsby games has Matrix released in the last seven years? Seems like a thousand. Don't tell me there's no market.

S
E
V
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Y
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A
R
S
!

[Arctic Blast]

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

Diminished expectations become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Matrix thinks WiF is not fit, from a projected sales point of view, to receive a proper allocation of resources, then that is simply additional proof of my contention that they are the wrong publisher for WiF, and their development 'plan' is a failure engineered and destined to live down to their expectations.

WiF is not an unknown with no visibility. It is a respected and well-regarded game with a quarter-century legacy behind it. Have some pride and confidence in the property, and certainly don't settle for a half-assed effort from an indifferent publisher. Don't enable failure with, "Oh wow, everyone's working so hard someday it'll be great, but we can't expect anything... we're just a little bunch of little pissants and all..." No market? C'mon, grow a pair. In the seven years CWiF has languished, Paradox has released HOI, HOI2, and HOI3 - that's a three-part franchise created from whole cloth! How many Gary Grigsby games has Matrix released in the last seven years? Seems like a thousand. Don't tell me there's no market.

S
E
V
E
N

Y
E
A
R
S
!

WiF is a known entity...to strategic board gamers. It hasn't truly existed as a fully developed/supported computer gaming entity yet, so comparing it to a series that's on to its third iteration is ridiculous. Hearts of Iron GRADUALLY developed a big enough fan base to actually be a big enough draw to get things like retail shelf space, something exceedingly rare for a PC game to begin with, and nearly unheard of in the strategy genre. Honestly, how many large scale strategy titles do you think sell even 10,000 copies in this day and age? It likely isn't all that many. The margins are tight when it comes to this segment of PC gaming.

And quite simply, who else would even take this on as a development project that, even if they could afford to pour more resources in to it, would do so knowing that the odds against it (as with any other game, but definitely strategy games due to that market being a tiny segment) actually making a ton of money are not exactly all that high? Paradox? Unlikely. They just spent a lot of capital buying up AGEOD and their development hopper is full with Victoria 2. Battlefront? They have one programmer on staff PERIOD. Shrapnel? They don't have any more resources than Matrix do. HPS? No, since it isn't a John Tiller property, and he hasn't really shown a willingness to do outside projects.

So please show us where this mystical developer is who will lavish this game with a dozen programmers and somehow magically get it a wide retail position in the market.

[werwolf]

Dear CrusssDaddy,


nice to read yor post, great job, but I have to tell you - as same as me- if you dare to complain or point out what is happens (i.e. matrix does not want to relase this game) you will end like me:

- you are a troll, you do not understand nothing, etc, etc, etc,

and you will receive the usual answers:

- the game will be ready when it will be;
- you cannot always get what you want;
- etc., etc., etc.,


You hit the target, you are perfect right.............but do not you dare to tell what is under the eyes of thousands people

Very nice post............



P.S.: be patient - like me - the game will be released (ah, ah, ah,) meanwhile I have a lot of fun seeing the fake promises and pretexts of those poor boys.....

And now I'am ready to receive a lot of insults, but the real - important - question is: When this game will be realased?
Probably me and you have already guess the ansewer..............

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Let's cut the crap. It's time to be done with amateur hour, and with a company that could care less if WiF is ever played on computer. CWiF (let's not prolong the joke that is 'MWiF') is being held hostage by Matrix. Not sure what type of deal ADG got snookered into, but if there is any means of reverting the computer rights, they need to be turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game.

Seven years, folks. Shannon you tried, but this task is plainly beyond the abilities of yourself and a cast of volunteers - whether that's due to a lack of support or talent doesn't matter. At least moving on will save you the indignity of cutting-and-pasting more New Year's Resolutions to be broken. Time to set fanboy-ery aside and put away the silly [&o] smileys. After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI. That's all that really matters. Graphics are sweetened, there're historical descriptions, and some bugs removed? BIG F'IN DEAL.

At some point, results have to trump effort. After seven years with Matrix, CWiF still hasn't reached that point, and so it's time to admit the failure of the current model and look elsewhere. That's not going to happen if every too-little effort is celebrated, every noble failure is backslapped and 'atta-boyed, and every New Year is celebrated with the same tired thank yous and prayers for progress. I've written this post to encourage Matrix and Shannon to step away honorably. I'll email ADG with the same thoughts and an exhortation to find a company worthy of the CWiF brand. Not sure what I else I can do. I hope others will join me in taking off their rose-colored glasses and embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve.

you cannot always get what you want

[Joseignacio]

Come on guys, there are some cons:
 
- 7 years
- still not a definitive date
- delays on previous dates
 
And there are some pros:
 
- A game entirely (until what is human to ask) bug-free. Or at least critical bugs-free. This is not very common.
 
- A niche title that is invaluable for us followers of wif.
 
- An IA which is essential. In fact, probably it will be essential to more like a 90% of the public objective than the 50%+ of the survey, which was made in an ever more hardcore group, we the ones who follow the developement in the website.
 
For ones, like for me, the balance is in favour of the pros by far. For others, it's the opposite. We have expressed this and gave arguments for our opinions, insisting once and again in this, calling names to the people or pressing Steve is just trolling in my opinion.
 
Steve, i offer an advice: Don't give too much importance to these comments, there is a lot of people who support you and your honest way to develope the game. Paying attention to disdainful comments that only mean to itch you is not necessary, since all these matters have been debated and explained already. If somebody goes on with this song it's because of personal reasons. [:)]

[Blorsh]

  I´ve played CWIF some times and i like it, but has some bugs that are so frustrating that I have to stop playing, so I want WIF computer game revised and free of critical bugs. I´d like to have all anuals units and rules also as I have them for the boardgame.

  I think the MWIF is too delayed and causes frustration but the ADGs website is also unattended, last update July 2009, and some years ago every day was actualized with a daily IIWW event, perhaps is an ADG problem? I don´t known.

  I expect and I want a well fiished game, better sooner than later, but I prefer a bug free game and wait a little more.

  Thank You.

[Anendrue]

I propose that we give Steve the Ironman award. After all he has stuck to this program with extreme dilligence. Even in the face of adversity his skin must be made of Iron or Steel to ignore a lot of these posts. Or, he must have one heck of a good sense of humor and constantly rolls on the floor in laughter at some of these posts. In which case maybe we should pay for a hip replacement.
 
Anyways, I have said this over and over. 
It will be done when it is done. 
By the way does anyone get the feeling the Crussdaddy may also be Werewolf. The tone and the style of writing seems very similiar to me anyways? Just a thought.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I propose that we give Steve the Ironman award. After all he has stuck to this program with extreme dilligence. Even in the face of adversity his skin must be made of Iron or Steel to ignore a lot of these posts. Or, he must have one heck of a good sense of humor and constantly rolls on the floor in laughter at some of these posts. In which case maybe we should pay for a hip replacement.

Anyways, I have said this over and over. 
It will be done when it is done. 

Haha, if that is the case I would gladly help.

ORIGINAL: abj9562
By the way does anyone get the feeling the Crussdaddy may also be Werewolf. The tone and the style of writing seems very similiar to me anyways? Just a thought.

Wouldn't be the first time I see things like these in the boards, I must admit it crossed my mind.

I have to leave, because I need to have lunch fast to reach in time to my WIF game. Envy anyone? [:D]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Let's cut the crap. It's time to be done with amateur hour, and with a company that could care less if WiF is ever played on computer. CWiF (let's not prolong the joke that is 'MWiF') is being held hostage by Matrix. Not sure what type of deal ADG got snookered into, but if there is any means of reverting the computer rights, they need to be turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game.

Seven years, folks. Shannon you tried, but this task is plainly beyond the abilities of yourself and a cast of volunteers - whether that's due to a lack of support or talent doesn't matter. At least moving on will save you the indignity of cutting-and-pasting more New Year's Resolutions to be broken. Time to set fanboy-ery aside and put away the silly [&o] smileys. After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI. That's all that really matters. Graphics are sweetened, there're historical descriptions, and some bugs removed? BIG F'IN DEAL.

At some point, results have to trump effort. After seven years with Matrix, CWiF still hasn't reached that point, and so it's time to admit the failure of the current model and look elsewhere. That's not going to happen if every too-little effort is celebrated, every noble failure is backslapped and 'atta-boyed, and every New Year is celebrated with the same tired thank yous and prayers for progress. I've written this post to encourage Matrix and Shannon to step away honorably. I'll email ADG with the same thoughts and an exhortation to find a company worthy of the CWiF brand. Not sure what I else I can do. I hope others will join me in taking off their rose-colored glasses and embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve.

clearly you don´t know anything.[:-]

i´m one of the testers. and the game is almost finished.

I hate people that take about something they don´t know anything about. [:@] [:@]

I take what you say as the truth as always but it sure did not sound like it from Steves Jan. report Michael are you going out on the limb with that statement, like its ready in one month, two months, six months please WHEN!

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Come on guys, there are some cons:

- 7 years
- still not a definitive date
- delays on previous dates

And there are some pros:

- A game entirely (until what is human to ask) bug-free. Or at least critical bugs-free. This is not very common.

- A niche title that is invaluable for us followers of wif.

- An IA which is essential. In fact, probably it will be essential to more like a 90% of the public objective than the 50%+ of the survey, which was made in an ever more hardcore group, we the ones who follow the developement in the website.

For ones, like for me, the balance is in favour of the pros by far. For others, it's the opposite. We have expressed this and gave arguments for our opinions, insisting once and again in this, calling names to the people or pressing Steve is just trolling in my opinion.

Steve, i offer an advice: Don't give too much importance to these comments, there is a lot of people who support you and your honest way to develope the game. Paying attention to disdainful comments that only mean to itch you is not necessary, since all these matters have been debated and explained already. If somebody goes on with this song it's because of personal reasons. [:)]

I have always felt your posts are well thought out to the point mostly positive towards Matrix and other people who post here, nor am I going to knock you now, I HAVE NO PERSONAL REASONS Jose none.
I might have a desire to try this game because of all the positive comments by the board playing members who post here. I found someone in the above posts who feels maybe a little stronger than I do about whats going on here. So I came to the conclusion that not everyone is all in gaga land waiting for the completion of this game. I just like honest opinions thats all not everything is rosy. I feel your opinions are very honest as I always have, allow me my opinions without the phrases of personal reasons and disdainful comments. My feelings are honest to the core. Maybe my age has something to do with my feelings Jose as I am in my sixties and have been waiting since 2004 for this game.

This is not meant in anyway to be offensive to you Jose.

Bo