A few questions about the rules

[Extraneous]

This has got me a little confused so please no Yes/No answers without an explanation.
 
 

ORIGINAL: 9.9 Multiple states of war
 
A unit may not enter or attack a hex (or units therein) controlled by a major power on the other side that it isn’t at war with. However it can attack a hex controlled by an enemy major power or minor country even if the hex contains units it is not at war with.
 
In attacking such a hex, you must fight all units there, but both sides ignore the fact that you may not be at war with all of them. This means that each side could fly air missions to the hex and use shore bombardment etc. as if they were all at war.
 
Example 1: There are 2 Commonwealth land units and a face-down LND in Nice. Italy declares war on France and wants to attack Nice. Italian aircraft ground strike the hex. They can be intercepted by Commonwealth (but not French ~ see 18) fighters. Both the Commonwealth and Italy can fl y aircraft in ground support to the hex.
 
If the Italians win the combat and advance into the hex, the face-down Commonwealth LND will be destroyed. Commonwealth units will no be able to counter attack to recapture the hex (unless they declare war on Italy) because they can’t attack a hex controlled by a major power they aren’t at war with.

 
 
In “Example 1” does this mean France controls Nice…
 
The CW units have permission to be in Nice, or
The CW units are in Nice and are subject to the “Foreign troop commitments” rule, or
Its an exmple and doesn't matter.
 
 
 
In “Example 1” if the CW controls Nice are the Italians able to attack Nice?
 
 
 
Major power A and major power B are not at war.
 
Major power A DoW’s a minor power.
 
Major power B aligns/controls the minor power.
 
Would major power A still be able to attack the minor power without DoW’ing major power B?
 

[brian brian]

In Example 1, yes the French control the hex. Yes the CW is subject to Foreign Troop Commitment; recall though that a CW HQ can be anywhere in France to make that work. The CW could only control Nice after recapturing it from Axis control in any of a variety of possible situations. If it was a CW controlled hex the Italians could attack it if they were at war with the CW.

Yes, Major Power A can always attack a minor country it declared war on, regardless of which Major Power on the other side chose to align it. Only active Major Powers may align a minor country, with the exception of Poland on the first impulse which automatically aligns with the CW.

[composer99]

In Example 1 as cited:

(1) From context, France is assumed to control Nice (this ought to be spelled out explicitly; however it isn't and there's not much we can do about that).
(2) The CW units are in Nice and are subject to foreign troop commitment.

If, on the other hand, the CW controlled Nice, in example 1 as cited since Italy only declared war on France it would be unable to attack Nice.


As for your more general question I hope this answer helps: Yes, major power A can attack the minor power it declared war on even if it is not at war with major power B.

Concrete example: USSR declares war on Finland in July/August 1940 after its borderlands claims are rejected.

Finland is aligned/controlled by Germany.

USSR is not at war with Germany.

USSR may still attack Finnish hexes without declaring war on Germany.

I hope that clears things up - clear as mud anyway! [:)]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

In Example 1 as cited:

(1) From context, France is assumed to control Nice (this ought to be spelled out explicitly; however it isn't and there's not much we can do about that).
(2) The CW units are in Nice and are subject to foreign troop commitment.

If, on the other hand, the CW controlled Nice, in example 1 as cited since Italy only declared war on France it would be unable to attack Nice.


As for your more general question I hope this answer helps: Yes, major power A can attack the minor power it declared war on even if it is not at war with major power B.

Concrete example: USSR declares war on Finland in July/August 1940 after its borderlands claims are rejected.

Finland is aligned/controlled by Germany.

USSR is not at war with Germany.

USSR may still attack Finnish hexes without declaring war on Germany.

I hope that clears things up - clear as mud anyway! [:)]

I think this is partially relevant.
---
Here's something that I had to fix recently (provided by the beta testers): a german sub is stacked in an Italian port with many Italian ships. The CW declares war on Italy and launches a port attack using carrier air units (actual carrier air units and not temporary ones, since the optional rule for carrier air units is being used). The Italians can not intercept even though they are at already war with the French, because they are surprised by the CW. If the French had joined with the CW in the attack, then the Italians could send up their fighters to intercept. A nearby German fighter can intercept because they are at war with the CW already. However, that is only because there is a German sub in the port. Without the presence of the German sub, they would not be allowed to help the surprised Italian fleet. Depending on the die rolls for naval combat surprise (since this is a port attack) the Axis may be able to avoid the combat entirely. But if they do not have enough surprise points to do that, then there may be an air-to-air combat in which they can use surprise points to assist the German fighter. Or they could save their surprise points and use them for column shifts in either the anti-aircraft subphase or when the port attack "goes in". Now the Italians can use their anti-aircraft division that is adjacent to the attacked port, even though they are surprised, and in combination with the atacked ships AA there will always be an anti-aircraft subphase, though the strength of the defending AA will be halved because they are surprised. Note that if a German AA unit were available, or if any German ships in the port had AA, then the German units would not have their AA halved. This is all preliminary to the actual port attack combat results and returning the various air units back to base. Writing the code to deal with this kind of stuff is where I spend most of my time.

[brian brian]

no one who has played a lot of WiF has any illusions about coding all of the possibilities created in the rules I wouldn't think.

The Italians could intercept the mission Steve mentions if any land-based CW planes were participating and flew from or over French hexes though.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: composer99

In Example 1 as cited:

(1) From context, France is assumed to control Nice (this ought to be spelled out explicitly; however it isn't and there's not much we can do about that).
(2) The CW units are in Nice and are subject to foreign troop commitment.

If, on the other hand, the CW controlled Nice, in example 1 as cited since Italy only declared war on France it would be unable to attack Nice.


As for your more general question I hope this answer helps: Yes, major power A can attack the minor power it declared war on even if it is not at war with major power B.

Concrete example: USSR declares war on Finland in July/August 1940 after its borderlands claims are rejected.

Finland is aligned/controlled by Germany.

USSR is not at war with Germany.

USSR may still attack Finnish hexes without declaring war on Germany.

I hope that clears things up - clear as mud anyway! [:)]

I think this is partially relevant.
---
Here's something that I had to fix recently (provided by the beta testers): a german sub is stacked in an Italian port with many Italian ships. The CW declares war on Italy and launches a port attack using carrier air units (actual carrier air units and not temporary ones, since the optional rule for carrier air units is being used). The Italians can not intercept even though they are at already war with the French, because they are surprised by the CW. If the French had joined with the CW in the attack, then the Italians could send up their fighters to intercept. A nearby German fighter can intercept because they are at war with the CW already. However, that is only because there is a German sub in the port. Without the presence of the German sub, they would not be allowed to help the surprised Italian fleet. Depending on the die rolls for naval combat surprise (since this is a port attack) the Axis may be able to avoid the combat entirely. But if they do not have enough surprise points to do that, then there may be an air-to-air combat in which they can use surprise points to assist the German fighter. Or they could save their surprise points and use them for column shifts in either the anti-aircraft subphase or when the port attack "goes in". Now the Italians can use their anti-aircraft division that is adjacent to the attacked port, even though they are surprised, and in combination with the atacked ships AA there will always be an anti-aircraft subphase, though the strength of the defending AA will be halved because they are surprised. Note that if a German AA unit were available, or if any German ships in the port had AA, then the German units would not have their AA halved. This is all preliminary to the actual port attack combat results and returning the various air units back to base. Writing the code to deal with this kind of stuff is where I spend most of my time.

Phew! What a brainsmasher. I hope u don't have too many of these...

[Extraneous]

The Pions-WiF-AiF-PatiF Excell spreadsheet lists CVP
 
Yr1 Sz1
Yr2 Sz2
Yr3 Sz3
 
Are these the years and adjusted sizes for CVP?
 
For a French F3F would:
Yr1 ~ 1933 be the initial year for the CVP size and Sz1 ~ Orange 2 be the initial size.
Yr2 ~ 1935 be the year the CVP size changed and Sz2 ~ Lt Blue 1 be the adjusted size.
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The Pions-WiF-AiF-PatiF Excell spreadsheet lists CVP

Yr1 Sz1
Yr2 Sz2
Yr3 Sz3

Are these the years and adjusted sizes for CVP?

For a French F3F would:
Yr1 ~ 1933 be the initial year for the CVP size and Sz1 ~ Orange 2 be the initial size.
Yr2 ~ 1935 be the year the CVP size changed and Sz2 ~ Lt Blue 1 be the adjusted size.

I think this should answer your question, taken from the Players Manual Section 8, Player Interface, Forms.
===

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The Pions-WiF-AiF-PatiF Excell spreadsheet lists CVP

Yr1 Sz1
Yr2 Sz2
Yr3 Sz3

Are these the years and adjusted sizes for CVP?

For a French F3F would:
Yr1 ~ 1933 be the initial year for the CVP size and Sz1 ~ Orange 2 be the initial size.
Yr2 ~ 1935 be the year the CVP size changed and Sz2 ~ Lt Blue 1 be the adjusted size.

Yes, this is right.
1933 is also what appears in the "year" column, as this is the year when it enters the force pool.

[Extraneous]

Effect of neutrality pacts
After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units controlled by other major powers on your side cannot enter hexes that are part of your common border with that major power if they are at war with that other major power. If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack.
Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries).

 
Do I understand this right?
 
A common border is established between the major powers entering into the neutrality pact.
 
This [font=arial]common border consists of every hex [/font]the involved major powers[font=arial] (or their aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of each other. [/font]
 
Any units controlled by other major powers that are at war with major powers that have entered into a neutrality pact cannot enter this common border in any way.
 
If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Effect of neutrality pacts
After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units controlled by other major powers on your side cannot enter hexes that are part of your common border with that major power if they are at war with that other major power. If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack.
Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries).

Do I understand this right?

A common border is established between the major powers entering into the neutrality pact.

This [font=arial]common border consists of every hex [/font]the involved major powers[font=arial] (or their aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of each other. [/font]

Any units controlled by other major powers that are at war with major powers that have entered into a neutrality pact cannot enter this common border in any way.

If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack.

Pretty much.

"A common border is established between the major powers entering into the neutrality pact." - To be clear, the border is not established by the neutrality pact, it exists before and after wherever the owned hexes (or owned by aligned minors) hexes meet. In fact if a neutral country was in between and was conquered or aligned by one of the Majors having the pact, then the "common border" would move up to the new border. FREX say Rumania is neutral. The Rumanian/Russian border and 3 hexes either side is not part of the common border area. Now Germany aligns Rumania. At that point the common border then includes the area described by 3 hexes either side.

"Any units controlled by other major powers that are at war with major powers that have entered into a neutrality pact cannot enter this common border in any way.

If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack."
- So let's say Italian units are on German controlled hexes within 3 hexes of the Russian border and Russia is at war with nobody. Now Italy DoWs Russia. Those Italian units must instantly teleport to a hex that is not a German controlled hex within 3 hexes of Russia. If outside already, they cannot move into such hexes or fly over them.

You could even get the teleportation happening after war was declared and fighting had occurred if your supposed "ally" entered into a neutrality pact with your enemy - but I 've never seen that happen.

[micheljq]

Deleted, mixep-up the threads again, sorry.

[Extraneous]

Major power A and major power B are on the same side.
 
Major power B DoW's minor power C.
 
Can major power A use its AMPH to move a land unit of major power B to invade minor power C?
 
 
 
I have looked under 9. Declaring war, 9.9 Multiple states of war, and 11.14 Invasions.
 
 
 
Under 9. Declaring war the RAW says:
You can’t attack its units (exception: see 9.9, multiple states of war).
You can’t bomb factories or resources it controls.
You can’t enter a hex controlled by:
a neutral minor country;
a neutral major power on your side; or
a major power or minor country you’re not yet at war with on the other side.
 
Under 9.9 Multiple states of war the RAW says “A unit may not enter or attack a hex (or units therein) controlled by a major power on the other side that it isn’t at war with. However it can attack a hex controlled by an enemy major power or minor country even if the hex contains units it is not at war with.
 
Under 11.14 Invasions the RAW says "Each unit which invades counts as 1 land move. Each invasion counts as 1 land attack".
 
 

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Major power A and major power B are on the same side.

Major power B DoW's minor power C.

Can major power A use its AMPH to move a land unit of major power B to invade minor power C?



I have looked under 9. Declaring war, 9.9 Multiple states of war, and 11.14 Invasions.



Under 9. Declaring war the RAW says:
You can’t attack its units (exception: see 9.9, multiple states of war).
You can’t bomb factories or resources it controls.
You can’t enter a hex controlled by:
a neutral minor country;
a neutral major power on your side; or
a major power or minor country you’re not yet at war with on the other side.

Under 9.9 Multiple states of war the RAW says “A unit may not enter or attack a hex (or units therein) controlled by a major power on the other side that it isn’t at war with. However it can attack a hex controlled by an enemy major power or minor country even if the hex contains units it is not at war with.

Under 11.14 Invasions the RAW says "Each unit which invades counts as 1 land move. Each invasion counts as 1 land attack".

Yes, as long as A and B cooperate.. A's AMPH is not attacking or entering C.

[Ullern]

Q1) Has anyone considered if the Annual 2008 errata about marker placement also affects factories. I think it does the way it's worded.

Q2) Is there a stacking limit for Synth oil?

[Ullern]

Didn't get reply on the prvious questions. But I'll add another one still:

Is there a difference between a ZOC from a neutral unit on the other side and an enemy unit on the other side?
Multiple states of war doesn't specify this. A lot of rules use the words "enemy ZOC."

A typical example where it matters:
German peace keepers in Finland in the Winter War ('39). According to ZOC rules German units will have ZOC that extends into Finnish hexes, but not USSR controlled hexes since Germany is not at war with the USSR. (This is quite clear if you read about where ZOC extends in RAW chapter 2.2) So the USSR would not be affected by German ZOC as long as they only move or trace supply in their own hexes. But how to deal with the German ZOC in Finnish hexes is not clear as the German units does have ZOC, but the ZOC is strictly speaking not enemy to the USSR. Does this mean that the USSR can ignore the German ZOC?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ullern

Didn't get reply on the prvious questions. But I'll add another one still:

Is there a difference between a ZOC from a neutral unit on the other side and an enemy unit on the other side?
Multiple states of war doesn't specify this. A lot of rules use the words "enemy ZOC."

A typical example where it matters:
German peace keepers in Finland in the Winter War ('39). According to ZOC rules German units will have ZOC that extends into Finnish hexes, but not USSR controlled hexes since Germany is not at war with the USSR. (This is quite clear if you read about where ZOC extends in RAW chapter 2.2) So the USSR would not be affected by German ZOC as long as they only move or trace supply in their own hexes. But how to deal with the German ZOC in Finnish hexes is not clear as the German units does have ZOC, but the ZOC is strictly speaking not enemy to the USSR. Does this mean that the USSR can ignore the German ZOC?

23. Glossary & Index has this :
*************************
Enemy [a major power or minor country you are at war with]
*************************

[Blorsh]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: ullern

Didn't get reply on the prvious questions. But I'll add another one still:

Is there a difference between a ZOC from a neutral unit on the other side and an enemy unit on the other side?
Multiple states of war doesn't specify this. A lot of rules use the words "enemy ZOC."

A typical example where it matters:
German peace keepers in Finland in the Winter War ('39). According to ZOC rules German units will have ZOC that extends into Finnish hexes, but not USSR controlled hexes since Germany is not at war with the USSR. (This is quite clear if you read about where ZOC extends in RAW chapter 2.2) So the USSR would not be affected by German ZOC as long as they only move or trace supply in their own hexes. But how to deal with the German ZOC in Finnish hexes is not clear as the German units does have ZOC, but the ZOC is strictly speaking not enemy to the USSR. Does this mean that the USSR can ignore the German ZOC?

23. Glossary & Index has this :
*************************
Enemy [a major power or minor country you are at war with]
*************************

So russian unit will have ZOC that extends into Finnish hexes and can make that a german peacekeeper could be out of supply but a german units ZOC will no extend in russian controled hexes so hexes in finland conquered by russian no have german ZOC, isn´t it?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: ullern

Didn't get reply on the prvious questions. But I'll add another one still:

Is there a difference between a ZOC from a neutral unit on the other side and an enemy unit on the other side?
Multiple states of war doesn't specify this. A lot of rules use the words "enemy ZOC."

A typical example where it matters:
German peace keepers in Finland in the Winter War ('39). According to ZOC rules German units will have ZOC that extends into Finnish hexes, but not USSR controlled hexes since Germany is not at war with the USSR. (This is quite clear if you read about where ZOC extends in RAW chapter 2.2) So the USSR would not be affected by German ZOC as long as they only move or trace supply in their own hexes. But how to deal with the German ZOC in Finnish hexes is not clear as the German units does have ZOC, but the ZOC is strictly speaking not enemy to the USSR. Does this mean that the USSR can ignore the German ZOC?

23. Glossary & Index has this :
*************************
Enemy [a major power or minor country you are at war with]
*************************

So russian unit will have ZOC that extends into Finnish hexes and can make that a german peacekeeper could be out of supply but a german units ZOC will no extend in russian controled hexes so hexes in finland conquered by russian no have german ZOC, isn´t it?

Welcome to the forum.[:)]

Yeah, I think that is all correct. I'll be redoing the supply routines so they run faster pretty soon. To do that I will have to have complete mastery of this rule. If I learn anything new (that disagrees with what you wrote), I'll post it here. Another case of "No news is good news".

[Blorsh]

  So IMO, al MWIF the live will be harder for German "peecekeeper" at Finland, because the russian units will have more space (european scale hexes, not ASA like board game) to manouvre around german units, and in the case german units are at coastal hexes and the russian units pass around them, the germans can no cut their supply, so the MWIF will be have different strategies from board game.

  I have the old CWiF, and at China the japanese advance is very different, the game rules are the same, but with different map scale is very different.

  At CWiF there is a bug that when at naval intercepetion the interceptios is succesful is not possible to attack only the moving units, you have to attack naval units at one sea box also, and at rules example:

"Heinz rolls a ‘5’. The other units in the sea-box are not included in the first combat round, so only the moving units will fight."

I expect this will be corrected at MWIF