Anti-air question

[Cheesehead]

I posted this question on the WiF list but I'm curious what Steve thinks as he will be implementing it in the rules.

In one of my current games my opponent declared an attack with a stack that included an AA gun. Then I announced my ground support into the defending hex. Then it occured to me: Can the attacker use the AA gun to shoot at my bomber and still participate in the attack?

After a thorough reading of the rules, I found nothing to prevent this. It says AA guns shooting at planes are flipped after the advance after combat phase. This just seems wrong to me. Any thoughts?

Thanks

John

[Jimm]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I posted this question on the WiF list but I'm curious what Steve thinks as he will be implementing it in the rules.

In one of my current games my opponent declared an attack with a stack that included an AA gun. Then I announced my ground support into the defending hex. Then it occured to me: Can the attacker use the AA gun to shoot at my bomber and still participate in the attack?

After a thorough reading of the rules, I found nothing to prevent this. It says AA guns shooting at planes are flipped after the advance after combat phase. This just seems wrong to me. Any thoughts?

I would totally agree with you that this seems wrong. On re-checking, to my surprise I find that the rules seem to specifically allow it:

22.4.2: "...If an AA unit uses anti-aircraft fire, turn it face-down at the end of the step. If firing against aircraft providing ground support, turn the AA unit face-down after Advancing after combat (see 11.16.5)"

If its not face down, presumably it can take part in the attack. Anyone else have a different take on this? Actually, what did the Wif discussion group say?

Personally I'm suddenly seeing even more value in those 88s I've just built...

[Cheesehead]

The two people that replied both agreed that you can do this, and I have yet to see anything in the rules that disallows this practice of firing twice in the same combat. The amazing thing is that after playing a dozen or so games this is the first time this has come up. I think a lot of people assume this can't be done.

[Jimm]

I imagine in my group we would agree house ruleto ignore it.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Jimm

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead
I posted this question on the WiF list but I'm curious what Steve thinks as he will be implementing it in the rules.

In one of my current games my opponent declared an attack with a stack that included an AA gun. Then I announced my ground support into the defending hex. Then it occured to me: Can the attacker use the AA gun to shoot at my bomber and still participate in the attack?

After a thorough reading of the rules, I found nothing to prevent this. It says AA guns shooting at planes are flipped after the advance after combat phase. This just seems wrong to me. Any thoughts?

I would totally agree with you that this seems wrong. On re-checking, to my surprise I find that the rules seem to specifically allow it:

22.4.2: "...If an AA unit uses anti-aircraft fire, turn it face-down at the end of the step. If firing against aircraft providing ground support, turn the AA unit face-down after Advancing after combat (see 11.16.5)"

If its not face down, presumably it can take part in the attack. Anyone else have a different take on this? Actually, what did the Wif discussion group say?

Personally I'm suddenly seeing even more value in those 88s I've just built...

First a few disclaimers, I do not consider myself a RAW rules expert, nor do I aspire to that title. However, I need to have every little detail rule wierdness nailed down in order to program it, so with reluctance I am learning about all this stuff.

I believe the italicized portion of the rules was intended primarily for the defender, so his AA units are not counted as face-down when the land combat calculations are done.

For the attacker, I am not sure, but using and AA unit twice in the same phase to attack would make it a unique unit that can attack twice in a phase.

[Froonp]

I believe the italicized portion of the rules was intended primarily for the defender, so his AA units are not counted as face-down when the land combat calculations are done.

The italicized portion is intended for both sides.
It speaks about "Advancing after combat", which is a sub-step of the 11.16.5 step. This just spells out the when, about the AA going face-down, which happens for both the attacker & the defender.

For the attacker, I am not sure, but using and AA unit twice in the same phase to attack would make it a unique unit that can attack twice in a phase.

Using AA is not attacking, per see. It is using an special ability (fire back at planes) that this unit can perform once a turn.

Cheesehead said:

I think a lot of people assume this can't be done.

On the contrary, I've seen this done lots of times, and I think this is common knowledge amongst the majority of players.
I'd add that there is nothing wrong in AA firing at the same time that it fights, for the WiF-Zen remember that this fight can be weeks long.

[Jimm]

On the contrary, I've seen this done lots of times, and I think this is common knowledge amongst the majority of players.
I'd add that there is nothing wrong in AA firing at the same time that it fights, for the WiF-Zen remember that this fight can be weeks long.

I bow to your superior knowledge Sensei, but I have to say it feels wrong to me....

[38special]

I wonder why these units, AA, should be turned over for shooting at bombers anyway. This is their natural function. I would vote to make these shots free from disrupting the AA units involved. Imo

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: 38special

I wonder why these units, AA, should be turned over for shooting at bombers anyway. This is their natural function. I would vote to make these shots free from disrupting the AA units involved. Imo

The designer decided that this function could only be used once a turn, as the planes are. I think this would be too powerful if it was usable all the time.

[Cheesehead]

Thanks for the input, Patrice. I think even once per turn AA guns are pretty valuable...especially the 3 factor units. I will be sure to never let them linger in my force pools for long.

Cheers

John

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

Thanks for the input, Patrice. I think even once per turn AA guns are pretty valuable...especially the 3 factor units. I will be sure to never let them linger in my force pools for long.

Cheers

John

AA units are great, both for their AA capability, and also for their AT effects also. Nearly all have AT effects. The German 88s are particulary powerful, being AT also in attacks. But in real life, the German 88s were very very very powerful.

[Caranorn]

Actually the 88s were pretty vulnerable in ground combat. Niklas Zetterling in his Normandy 1944 book speculates that many cases of tanks supposedly destroyed by 88's was actually by 75mm AT. What the 88s were really good at in addition to their AA role was as artillery (both direct and indirect fire).

Though I wouldn't change WiF for that (now if I were to reinvent the wheel...).

[Ballista]

The 88 was a good PR victory for the Nazis as was the Tiger and Stuka. "Every gun an 88, every tank a Tiger, every plane a Stuka"....