A Glorious Way to Die: John 3rd vs. NY59Giants BTS: Lite

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Insano

Let me expand on what the Canoerebel said and direct you to (in this JFB's opinion) the single most significant Allied industrial asset on the map: the Consolidated factories in San Diego. Most of the PBY production is on map. What can you do to hinder production of this aircraft so critical to the Allied war effort?

And how long do you think an effort against San Diego can be sustained?

Just how much fuel will be dumped down the drain doing so?

How much fuel will be dumped down the drain sustaining the garrison at PH?

I'm not focusing on what havoc Japan might do in six months or a year I'm focusing on the strategic drain and extreme over extension of perimeter.

Reread my statement and focus on the "two years form now"

Sure Japan will live it up and bask in the glory of conquest.....for a time.

How over ripe is that plum going to be two years from now when the huge garrison necessary to hold on to it is simply bypassed and left to fall to the ground and rot?

No on can deny that it is operationally and tactically fun, but is it really strategically smart?

Only time will tell!

[Lowpe]

If the Allies lose several carriers fighting for Pearl, that would change the equation. Since there is very little the Allies will actually defend early, perhaps this will be the exception.

Also, this is the reduced cargo mod I believe, and lacking a central logistics hub I think will really help delay the later operations of the Allies.

Of course, only time and play will determine the outcome.[:)]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

If the Allies lose several carriers fighting for Pearl, that would change the equation. Since there is very little the Allies will actually defend early, perhaps this will be the exception.

Also, this is the reduced cargo mod I believe, and lacking a central logistics hub I think will really help delay the later operations of the Allies.

Of course, only time and play will determine the outcome.[:)]

I'm pretty sure the BTS mods are all based on Babes B not C, which is the reduced cargo version.

However, I completely agree that the loss of the central distribution hub creates a real hardship.

I just can't see strategic bombing of SD as any kind of real threat. For strategic bombing to be effective it has to be sustained.

The only platform the Japanese have for strategic bombing SD is the KB. Sustaining the KB off of SD would be a logistics nightmare with Pearl being the closest locale for replenishment.

Not to mention that the flak attrition alone would be devastating.

The KB is not the correct asset to base a strategic bombing campaign around.

Yes a raid or too could do some damage, but in the long run how much is that really worth.

How long before the overwhelming supply logistics of the US simply repairs the damage?

I can't see it as a real threat.

[Mike McCreery]

Hans,

Most of your questions will be answered in good time ;]

[John 3rd]

Our Mod does have reduced capacities and they SUCK!

Sorry for not jumping in but it is end of the year for school here and this means several of the busiest days of the year at the store.

I like reading this tactical vs. strategic debate regarding PH. Ideas, thoughts, and comments really help a bunch. Dan LOVES the idea of PH taken by Japan messing with the Allied cause. I concur. My initial thoughts are to get the job done and then make life HELL on American shipping. One cannot hope to CLOSE down the West Coast but one could make it exceptionally difficult. Hans is right regarding fuel cost. BIG CONCERN!

Keep throwing ideas out and let the debate continue.

February 22, 1942
0400
Kido Butai

The 48 ships that comprise Japan's 'tip of the spear' are at flight stations. Scout Planes are launching from 6 Battlecruisers. On the decks of 5 CV, 5 CVL, and 2 CAV, last minute checks are made on 343 Zeros. Today is EAGLE DAY for Japan's Fighter Corps. Pearl Harbor lies just 200 miles over the horizon. Adm Yamaguchi Tamon smiles in repressed glee. FINALLY we take the battle to the American bastion. Operation Eastern Storm has exceeded everyone's expectations, however, the Americans have been remarkably obstinate in staying within their Fortress. Time to twist the tail of the beast...

"Captain--Bring us into the wind. Battle Speed One. Commence Launch!"

[John 3rd]

Turn sent to Michael.

[John 3rd]

QUESTIONS:

1. Can one wage a solid commerce war against American Shipping from Hawaii?
2. If you were to attack the West Coast, what would be your FIRST target? We've already seen one nomination.

Just to keep the discussion and debate rolling team!

[Canoerebel]

The utitility of the Hawaiian Islands for strategic purposes cannot be done by a seat-of-the-pants, intuition kind of approach. You have to dive into this fully to get enough information to make informed deicsions. If you don't, you'll make decisions without realize repurcussions. Seriously, to evaluate this would take a full commitment of your time and attention by reading various AARs and possibly the rule book. It would take a lot of time. Taking a lot of time dissuades alot of players (including me) from doing this kind of thing because it's work. Why "work" when you can stay within the realm of what you do know. But if you take the road more traveled, you will have unknowingly squandered one of the best opportunities presented to a Japanese player. It's February '42, you're going to control Hawaii and perhaps most of Alaska, you can easily expand your control to Canada, and you can bedevil the Americans, causing Michael tremendous pain and worry. But in order to do that, you have to know now (to evaluate and then to make preparations) so that you can get the ball rolling.

There are a zillion rules to look into. For instance, you probably know that you can invade Canada (but not continental USA) without triggering the Line of Death reinforcements. There are some big bases in Canada. What might you do with them against USA from a strategic bombing aspect?

Another for instance: I have a fuzzy, five-year-old memory that under certain circumstances, destroying American industry is PERMANENT. IE, it can't be repaired. I don't recall the circumstances, but if I wanted to make an informed decision, I'd research that. What if you can do it my bombing from Canada (I don't think you can, but it bears looking into). What if you can do it by capturing an American base by land or parachute drop? I'm not sure you want to trigger LOD reinforcments, but how can you make a knowing evaluation without knowledge?

And what exactly could the KB do on a cruise down the American coast. Would it be worthwile to attack oil centers in California? What about aircraft factories in San Diego or Seattle? What about the American ships that might be trapped without adequate fighter cover?

I faced many of these questions as an Allied player in a game vs. Panzerjagger Hortlund about five years ago. I suffered quite a bit of pain as he did some of these very things (including the KB bombing oil production in California). I also fretted my arse off as I worried about and analyzed (with much help from Bullwinkle, Alfred, etc.) just what he might do to me. The possibilities seemed limitless. I had to take many drastic actions, like garrisoning all the Canadian and American bases including inland places like Westover Field and Edmonton. It was tense.

In the end, I survived the Blitz and I think Panzerjagger knew he had missed even greater opportunities by not fully knowing the rules early enough.

It's February 1942, and John has Michael in a very tough position. But does John realize it?

So, tell me again. Why is it that John is drawn to western Australia rather than to western North America?

[Lowpe]

I believe bombing manpower, creating fires, fires that will then destroy factories is permanent. Just bombing the Catalina plane works will allow them to be rebuilt at 1000 supply per damaged point. It is unclear what happens to a plane factory if it is captured.

Also, victory points garnered by burning is much higher than vp gotten from simple destroying. 2 points for destroyed, 18 more points for burning destruction. I believe.

[pws1225]

Section 13.6 (page 236) on Capturing Industry says "Captured aircraft factories convert to vehicle factories."

[pws1225]

Section 13.0, third paragraph (page 225) says

"When the Production System is on, the Allies are allowed certain on-map production of aircraft,
supplies, and fuel along with having repair shipyards, but since most Allied material was going
to Europe, and most production was off-map, (which brings items into the replacement pools on a regular basis
from off-map areas) and daily automatic arrival of supplies and fuel in key rear area bases."

From this I gather that even if the WC aircraft factories were captured, the Group Reinforcement aircraft would still appear as scheduled since they were presumably produced at off-map locations.

Just my two cents.

[pws1225]

The oil and refinery centers at LA are another story altogether.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The utitility of the Hawaiian Islands for strategic purposes cannot be done by a seat-of-the-pants, intuition kind of approach. You have to dive into this fully to get enough information to make informed deicsions. If you don't, you'll make decisions without realize repurcussions. Seriously, to evaluate this would take a full commitment of your time and attention by reading various AARs and possibly the rule book. It would take a lot of time. Taking a lot of time dissuades alot of players (including me) from doing this kind of thing because it's work. Why "work" when you can stay within the realm of what you do know. But if you take the road more traveled, you will have unknowingly squandered one of the best opportunities presented to a Japanese player. It's February '42, you're going to control Hawaii and perhaps most of Alaska, you can easily expand your control to Canada, and you can bedevil the Americans, causing Michael tremendous pain and worry. But in order to do that, you have to know now (to evaluate and then to make preparations) so that you can get the ball rolling.

There are a zillion rules to look into. For instance, you probably know that you can invade Canada (but not continental USA) without triggering the Line of Death reinforcements. There are some big bases in Canada. What might you do with them against USA from a strategic bombing aspect?

Another for instance: I have a fuzzy, five-year-old memory that under certain circumstances, destroying American industry is PERMANENT. IE, it can't be repaired. I don't recall the circumstances, but if I wanted to make an informed decision, I'd research that. What if you can do it my bombing from Canada (I don't think you can, but it bears looking into). What if you can do it by capturing an American base by land or parachute drop? I'm not sure you want to trigger LOD reinforcments, but how can you make a knowing evaluation without knowledge?

And what exactly could the KB do on a cruise down the American coast. Would it be worthwile to attack oil centers in California? What about aircraft factories in San Diego or Seattle? What about the American ships that might be trapped without adequate fighter cover?

I faced many of these questions as an Allied player in a game vs. Panzerjagger Hortlund about five years ago. I suffered quite a bit of pain as he did some of these very things (including the KB bombing oil production in California). I also fretted my arse off as I worried about and analyzed (with much help from Bullwinkle, Alfred, etc.) just what he might do to me. The possibilities seemed limitless. I had to take many drastic actions, like garrisoning all the Canadian and American bases including inland places like Westover Field and Edmonton. It was tense.

In the end, I survived the Blitz and I think Panzerjagger knew he had missed even greater opportunities by not fully knowing the rules early enough.

It's February 1942, and John has Michael in a very tough position. But does John realize it?

So, tell me again. Why is it that John is drawn to western Australia rather than to western North America?

OK Mr. Roper. I wanted to try to take Hawaii simply to TAKE IT and place a feather in my cap.

It is quite another thing to fully embrace the concepts you guys are throwing out.

Where, EXACTLY, is the Line of Death in Canada. IF I did something sooooooooo stupid (thus my forte!) as invade Canada I really--really don't want to trigger those reinforcements.

Have never seriously looked at Alaska. What sorts of benefits can I gain there? Resources? Oil? Positioning? All are relevant questions to ponder.

The one, interesting, thought I have regarding this would be that a move into Canada (via Alaska) certainly would work to shorten my lines in some respects. I could have Emily recon out from Hawaii and the western edge of Canada and (I think) their search arcs would interconnect. This could give tons of warning to moves from the West Coast. It would force Michael to only look south for hauling supplies, warships, and transports...

He has also moved a good amount of troops into the eastern Aleutians. This weakens Canada and Alaska. Killing UNITS is a GOOD thing!

Must ruminate on this some more. Keep on with the chat fellas. It is enlightening.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
OK Mr. Roper. I wanted to try to take Hawaii simply to TAKE IT and place a feather in my cap.

It is quite another thing to fully embrace the concepts you guys are throwing out.

Where, EXACTLY, is the Line of Death in Canada. IF I did something sooooooooo stupid (thus my forte!) as invade Canada I really--really don't want to trigger those reinforcements.

Have never seriously looked at Alaska. What sorts of benefits can I gain there? Resources? Oil? Positioning? All are relevant questions to ponder.

The one, interesting, thought I have regarding this would be that a move into Canada (via Alaska) certainly would work to shorten my lines in some respects. I could have Emily recon out from Hawaii and the western edge of Canada and (I think) their search arcs would interconnect. This could give tons of warning to moves from the West Coast. It would force Michael to only look south for hauling supplies, warships, and transports...

He has also moved a good amount of troops into the eastern Aleutians. This weakens Canada and Alaska. Killing UNITS is a GOOD thing!

Must ruminate on this some more. Keep on with the chat fellas. It is enlightening.

The line of death in North America is south of Vancouver (just like how in Australia its south of Brisbane).

The oil question is a good one. If you could manage to secure an oil source with a refinery on the west coast/Alaska that would be huge for you. Without a refinery, however, I don't think the oil is of much use. I don't think there is much use in bombing Allied oil or fuel production, however.

Do you have an HR about American units going into Canada without PP? If so then an invasion of Canada definitely sounds feasible.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I believe bombing manpower, creating fires, fires that will then destroy factories is permanent. Just bombing the Catalina plane works will allow them to be rebuilt at 1000 supply per damaged point. It is unclear what happens to a plane factory if it is captured.

Also, victory points garnered by burning is much higher than vp gotten from simple destroying. 2 points for destroyed, 18 more points for burning destruction. I believe.

Fires alone won´t permanently destroy factories. For that to happen you need to create firestorms. Something I was unable to do during my entire HI bombing campaign. So I think creating firestorms is beyond Japanese abilities.

Judging by a recent discussion in my own AAR the factory is completely wiped out if captured.

[Canoerebel]

John, you're going to have to dive in fully if you want to make informed decisions about your position and its possibilties. I get the impression from your questions that you're barely engaged in this and haven't even considered diving into the question-answering process yet. You'll need to do some serious research first, before you start asking quesitons. If not, you'll just ask scattered questions and get scattered answers, some useful and some harmful or wrong though you won't know it.

If I was in your situation right now, the first thing I'd do is re-read a good bit of my old "War and Peas" AAR vs. Panzerjagger Hortlund. You will see the development of the situation, the immense pressure created, and the zillion questions I asked and that were answered by some very bright people.

You have an immense opportunity, IMO, but each turn you do without digging into this is another turn lost. Time lost. A tremendous opportunity partly squandered, turn by turn, until it vanishes (or until you turn your attention elsewhere, surrendering it voluntarily). How's that for pressure?

I don't think you need any more bases in Alaska at the moment, except to the extent their are easy pickings and helpful bases on the panhandle, which there will be. You can pick up some big bases useful for both bombing, CAP and patrolling.

I think your bigger opportunities would be in Canada if you decide (knowingly, after thorough research and question asking and answering) that it makes sense for you to engage in such an operation. To my way of thinking, Canada's main benefit would be as a strategic bombing platform vs. the USA. There's also the possiblity that you'd use it for incursions into the USA proper, though that question would take a huge cost/benefit analysis. Invading USA might (only "might") be worth it if you could knock out industry permanently or if you were going for auto victory. Part of this equation is that some North American bases (including Alaska) can be built huge for points. But for now, I don't think you need to get diverted by Anchorage, etc. You can backfill if needed and helpful, later.

I certainly think the KB position of the West Coast offers you immense opportunities and places maximum pressure on Michael. YOu have good strategic bombing targets and you might trap good shipping. I would think a KB campaign against the West Coast would offer far more opportunities than the KB circling Australia and with probably less oil used? I don't know that for sure, but that's the kind of question I'd be looking into.

Ultimately, you migth decide this isn't worth it, but you can't make that decision until you know a heckuva lot more than you do at the moment. The questions you posed indicate to me that you've not even started looking into this like you're going to have to in order ot make informed decisions.

As for Michael, I'm sure he's sweating bullets. I"m also sure he's "jazzed" by the threat and by the challenge. Who doesn't like testing new and dangerous and exciting waters?

And I bet this: If you take Hawaii and then steam off to the south and west to focus on Oz, Michael will breathe a huge sigh of relief.

[John 3rd]

I completely agree. My thinking has always been the grabbing of Hawaii for simply getting it, gaining the VP, and crushing his eastern launching pad for an invasion. Taking the intellectual step further is much more difficult and this is what I am attempting to grasp.

Will look up the AAR.

Will load the Dec 7th Allied side and do a serious review of Alaska, Canada, and West Coast. Figure calling it pre-war intelligence!

[Canoerebel]

Ultimately, you may decide not to pursue this course of action. You may have other ideas your prefer. I'm just hoping you'll gather enough info so that you can make an informed decision on which course to follow. I do know that micromanagement from the Peanut Gallery can become tedious - it's your game, after all! - so I'll try to sit down and stop butting in. Bottom line: Have fun!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ultimately, you may decide not to pursue this course of action. You may have other ideas your prefer. I'm just hoping you'll gather enough info so that you can make an informed decision on which course to follow. I do know that micromanagement from the Peanut Gallery can become tedious - it's your game, after all! - so I'll try to sit down and stop butting in. Bottom line: Have fun!

Thanks Dan.

I love all the commentary and thinking. "Outside the box" is now always one of my strong points!

Keep up the ideas and commentary fellas...

[John 3rd]

February 21, 1942

Operation Eastern Storm
We've already detailed the planned ZERO Sweep for tomorrow. Should also add 63 ZEROs from Lahaina as well. The Sweep should be around 250 planes from the CVs and then the 63 from Lahaina. Anyone want to guess as to kills for next turn?? Figure all the Dec 7th American Fighter Squadrons are present...

AF Construction:
Lihue AF 1(91)
Kona AF 1(48)
Hilo AF 2(45)

DEI
Batavia
The bombers shift from AF to ground as we prepare to nake a 3rd assault.

Ketapang and Singkep fall.

Burma
Akyab
The CAP trap I set-up yesterday truly bears fruit! Two large Sentai of Oscars were flown in and set at 100% CAP. The Allied attacks come in all disjointed and the results are a small slaughter:
Raid 1 76 Oscar vs. 14 Vildebreest--All TB shot down.
Raid 2 74 Oscars vs. 12 Vildebreest--All TB shot down.
Raid 3 71 Oscar vs 26 AVG--4 Oscars for 12 AVG.

Total losses are 42 Allied for just 9 Oscars. GOOD WORK!

North Pacific
Adak AF-2