Best overall amphibious ships? Jap

[CyrusSpitama]

I am losing a steady stream of xAKs (with max passenger cap) and xAPs. What am I doing wrong here since my AMCs are in very limited supply So far, they seem to be the most resistant to coastal guns during amphibious landings. I do try to add CAs and CLs (when possible) to my landings if it is workable. During the time of the Jap amphib bonus, my losses were barely manageable and now, they are bordering on extreme. In fact, I had stopped production on many xAKs and I now have re-engaged all of them to stem this loss. Currently in very late '42 and cannot see myself being able to do any more landings if I need to with these painful landings. I suppose I should take solace in the fact that there is very few bases left to grab because if there was, it may warrant a war concession! And I don't mean a snowball stand either! Currently, the only thing stopping the Allies from taking more minor bases to cause me MORE headaches is my heavy LBA and search areas.

It's bad enough the Allies seem to be ignoring the dud rates on their torps... 3 BBs out of commission for months from a SINGLE torp on each... bleah.

P.S. I am using RA mod v4.6 so maybe that's the cause of my amphib losses?

[CyrusSpitama]

In addition to the above question: How do I prevent my task forces from splitting off these wounded ships into solo groups (sometimes it gives it an escort) which almost guarantees the ship will sink because the task force is not helping it to limp back to base?

[Saros]

Have you converted the IJN xAK classes to AK's that will help a little. Also try to balance the load so all the ships are unloaded in the first turn to limit the CD gun exposure and perhaps embed a heavier ship in the task forces to soak the hits.

[CyrusSpitama]

Ahh, well I didn't mention above but, I have converted all possible xAKs to AKs. I figured they were vital for other duties rather than frontline landings. I guess I goofed on that one. [X(] My main usage for my AKs has been the followup task forces that supply my landings with engineers (where applicable) and reinforcements. Also, they are used for picking up attack forces and dropping them back at my primary hub in that area. This of course does not apply in cases where the troops can march from where they were dropped to the next location. Their very nice speed, defenses, and capacity has done wonders for these assignments. While they may have helped on a few landings, I avoided using them for primary attacks! /cue the laughter if I really boned this one.

As for splitting up the armies to allow them to land faster, I have been all over that. Thing is, you get two phases of CD guns and then a final phase of just unloading. Those first two phases have been painful in the extreme!

[Saros]

Well amphibious assaults are tricky things and the IJN lacks many of the nicer toys that the USN gets. You need to bombard the base enough to disrupt the CD units, Planes on port attack will also hit CD guns which can help with disruption and disabling of guns. Really though you will take heavy losses assaulting a fortified and supplied position, its just a fact of life.
What sort of units are causing you grief? Is it the US defense forces with their 6in guns or something else?

[jmalter]

hi CS,

to answer your 2nd question 1st - you can't prevent the game-engine from auto-creating these 'Escort' TFs for your cripples. you can increase their chances by immediately switching them to 'cruise' speed. crippled ships don't really get any advantage from being in a large TF, it's the TF speed that matters. but some are so badly munged that they are beyond hope - in that case, add them back into the AmphTF to soak up more shell-fire from the enemy CD guns. IMO CD guns tend to focus on damaged ships.

for your 1st question - you need to have gunfire-support ships in the AmphTF - cruisers/DDs w/ main guns of 5" or better. they will fire in response to enemy CD guns, but expend their MA ammo quickly. what you need is a following SurfTF (follow at range=0) of CL/DDs - after the 1st turn of unload, check your gunfire ships' ammo and create a new TF (comprising 'red MA' GF, emptied transports, and 'survivable' cripples). then merge the DDs from the following TF into the original AmphTF.

i'm an AFB, & don't have any idea of what's available to the IJN for naval gunfire support. but having recently watched a lot of invasions from the Allied side, i know that 6" CD guns can put the hurt on xAP/xAKs after their accompanying DDs have shot off all their ammo. if you've got few CL/DDs available, consider dividing them - 2/3rds for the initial landing, 1/3rd for the follow-up TF.

hth

[CyrusSpitama]

6" guns exactly are the issue. Seems whenever they are present, I am guaranteed to lose a few nice ships. Nothing massive (yet) but, the numbers sunk by 6" guns is rather lengthy! I have hammered a number of bases with my KB because unlike if I was playing a human, I am not overly concerned about them knowing exactly where my KB is located. Typical scenario is to bombard the base with my KB (when available) and land after a few turns of that. I had read about the CD guns being listed under port attack but, was not willing to punish the condition of the base as seems to happen far too often. I suppose I need to try that (port attacks) more before hitting those harder, CD defended bases.

Its more or less too late for this game I am running to try some of these ideas in full. Very soon I plan to restart once more so I can practice this whole getting the industry to work and be as oil neutral as possible. My primary landings are taking place in/near Aussieland as I have the rest of my goals well under wraps. Currently, US forces keep striking at my perimeter bases and have caused a few unit's destruction. These are the bases I am forced to retake and see these rather large losses of xAKs and xAPs. I suppose I can start testing the usage of AKs with these bases now as most of them are not far behind front lines.

P.S. I have kept my TBs from the KB out of bombing my targets because I want to keep them searching/NavAtk/ASW. Should I start using them for ground bombing of amphib targets as well?

[CyrusSpitama]

hi CS,

to answer your 2nd question 1st - you can't prevent the game-engine from auto-creating these 'Escort' TFs for your cripples. you can increase their chances by immediately switching them to 'cruise' speed. crippled ships don't really get any advantage from being in a large TF, it's the TF speed that matters. but some are so badly munged that they are beyond hope - in that case, add them back into the AmphTF to soak up more shell-fire from the enemy CD guns. IMO CD guns tend to focus on damaged ships.

I understood that ships in a fleet helped share their damage control teams. Have I been operating on a false premise? As for soaks, been there and done that. When I see that 90s+ floatation/SYS damage I know she ain't making it back to port I more or less kept them unloading to do exactly what you said as well as to dump whatever supply they have left on shore.

for your 1st question - you need to have gunfire-support ships in the AmphTF - cruisers/DDs w/ main guns of 5" or better. they will fire in response to enemy CD guns, but expend their MA ammo quickly. what you need is a following SurfTF (follow at range=0) of CL/DDs - after the 1st turn of unload, check your gunfire ships' ammo and create a new TF (comprising 'red MA' GF, emptied transports, and 'survivable' cripples). then merge the DDs from the following TF into the original AmphTF.

I have been switching in ships where I can but, the biggest issue has been CD guns nailing me on the first phase landing attempt. Am I timing my landings poorly and maybe shouldn't focus on getting that first phase of landing done? I can accomplish this by spacing them a little further away from the base I *think*. Haven't really tried this idea yet.

i'm an AFB, & don't have any idea of what's available to the IJN for naval gunfire support. but having recently watched a lot of invasions from the Allied side, i know that 6" CD guns can put the hurt on xAP/xAKs after their accompanying DDs have shot off all their ammo. if you've got few CL/DDs available, consider dividing them - 2/3rds for the initial landing, 1/3rd for the follow-up TF.

See above and yes I am sure you smile quite often at the punishment dealt out by these nasty CD guns.

[Puhis]

My suggestion is that you bombard first using battleships, then land combat units supported by cruisers. If you don't have available battleships and cruisers, don't try to land units. At least not bases that have CD guns. Also, it it a good idea to land smaller nearby bases instead of heavily defended bases (if that's possible).

Best japanese amphibious ships are LSDs, then AMCs. But you don't get many.

[CyrusSpitama]

I suppose I could focus more on BBs getting to pound the base beforehand. I do so now but, I don't make a point of doing everywhere I possibly could. My 3 BBs out of service now were from bombardment groups that had a surprise TB airgroup get to knocking my fleet around. I am guessing I should go for a rotating set of fleets where one is ready to bombard while the other heads back to rearm? How many BB bombardments do you consider effective? We only get one really good one in before its time to rearm. This limitation is why I don't make sure to always bombard with BBs. I almost always bombard with cruisers attached to my amphib forces.

As for the timing of the landings. I usually try to move them 2 hexes away from the target on the prior turn. Maybe this is also a fault in my strategy? Any advice here?

[jmalter]

hmm, IME you get the best results setting up 1 hex away from the target, assuming you can do so w/ adequate air cover. then switch the BBombarmentTF to fullspeed (w/ floatplanes @ Night Recon), remain on station; w/ AmphTF following at fullspeed. the idea is to give the AmphTF max time (ops-points) to unload in its 1st phase, if you've got enough gunfire-support in your TF. you could even set Destination to the target hex (w/ BombTF set as a SurfTF, and AmphTF set to DoNotUnload), then switch them to BombTF and Unload at fullspeed.

you've got to have some sense of your target's strength, before you try to run in and smack it. a minor base in poor supply is vulnerable (once you get ashore, 'cos bad supply don't prevent the CD guns from shooting). a major base in good supply can break your teeth.

i've never played the IJ side, but i'd think that once the amph bonus is over, it's time to play the finesse game - conservation of assets, infiltration tactics, etc.

dunno how i'd use KB to support an amph-assault, it'd depend on having a good stream of trained pilots & aircraft, and operating in concert w/ LBA.

i don't think TF ships can aid each other's damage control, it's all down to the individual ships exp rating and sys damage. switching to cruise speed is essential.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

i don't think TF ships can aid each other's damage control, it's all down to the individual ships exp rating and sys damage. switching to cruise speed is essential.

Actually, other ships do help damage control, at least firefighting.

But it won't help japanese transports that have low experience. If there is some system damage and fires above 10, the ship is usually doomed.

[crsutton]

I disagree here. This is what old BBs are for. When you expect strong coastal defenses, simply add at least one old BB to your amphibious task force. This will serve two purposes. The BB will draw the majority of the counter fire thus saving your smaller ships, and BBs are pretty much immune to any guns 8" and below. And second, the big guns of the BBs will do more to suppress the shore batteries thus lessening their effect. If you do not have old BBs then CAs must do the job. However, a six inch gun can penetrate the armor of a CA. Do this and your losses will drop dramatically. A separate BB bombarding force is a one shot deal and can be ineffective. You might come away from the invasion with some sys damage on the BB but this is far better in my book than losing valuable landing ships (or for Japan valuable DDs and Cls). If your expect your unloading to take more than a day or two then have a spare BB ready to rotate into your landing TF as heavy shore fire and counter battery can use up it's ammo.

It amazes me how many players try to sling their old BBs around in surface combat TFs and end up wasting them.

Try this and let me know if it does not work for you.

[Lcp Purcell]

[te]

This is what old BBs are for. When you expect strong coastal defenses, simply add at least one old BB to your amphibious task force. This will serve two purposes. The BB will draw the majority of the counter fire thus saving your smaller ships, and BBs are pretty much immune to any guns 8" and below. And second, the big guns of the BBs will do more to suppress the shore batteries thus lessening their effect.

I totally agree, just throw in as many BB's as you can plus CA's & CL's then no longer will you lose the fleet of AP and AKs ( but a few battleships may spend a time at the repair yards)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I disagree here. This is what old BBs are for. When you expect strong coastal defenses, simply add at least one old BB to your amphibious task force.

+1

You only need one or two BB's in your amphib TF. A couple of old DD's will help also to pound on the CD's. Load light so everything offloads in one day, then move out. Try to bring enough force so that the base falls on the first assault. [;)]

[CyrusSpitama]

I have been so focused on learning how to properly get my Jap industry under control, the other finer points of the game have obviously slipped past me. It was already planned but, I have already started my game fresh and setting up turn 1 as I type this. This will be my 4th restart ( so 5th game attempt) and I have yet to even try the Allies.

From this posting I have discovered (correct any misunderstandings for me) :

1) AKs are better used on frontline amphib groups rather than being the ones who reinforce these attacks. I do admit this concerns me early on in the war due to the severe lack of AKs. I suppose I'll get the AKs where I can on less defended bases so there is less risk. Once I have more AKs converted I won't be as concerned.

2) Use BBs where possible on these amphib assaults. Currently my primary bombardment(within the amphib fleet) has been via CAs with CL supplements. I can tweak this around somewhat easily I think.

3) Tougher bases go ahead with as many bomber strike on port as is practical to reduce the CDs and bombard them with a BB fleet as well.


Thanks all for the help !

My goal for this restart. Wrap up the SRA no later than June. Have much more HI reserves than I have currently been able to accrue by end of '42.

[Dili]

Get a first day save just in case.

[Knyvet]

Some other ideas:

MOST Important!? Speed up your assault landings
Don't stick around just to dump extra supply
Have the assault TF enter the target hex with as much OP points as possible (gamey? no, just logical timing/coordination).
(classic rookie mistake) Don't ever use just the min # of ships - extra ships help speed up landing (see my Don Bowen quote below).
Split your LCUs across ships (mostly done automatically unless you add ships to an already loading TF).
For the Japs, your AP's are your primary amphib ships because of quantity.
[Atoll invasions have special other considerations].

Recon them thar CDs
Note that your bombardment TF also acts as recon to determine the number of the CD guns (although FOW) and on a related note, use recon FPs from large ships at night and day to recon for the bombardment (you will see 'acting as spotter for' messages).

Bombardment vs. Part of Assault TF (where to put the BBs?)
I prefer to rotate heavy ships in a couple of TFs for sustained bombardment rather than putting the large ships in with the assault force - there are pros and cons to each and the situation dictates which to use - as one vet player note, no two amphib operations are alike. As the Japs, you only have so many BBs to provide AAA for CVs (keep them with CV TF - don't use per historical asinine Jap AAA doctrine), participate in assault TFs, bombardment TFs, anchor surface TFs and on top of that they suck up a ton of fuel.

Post from Don Bowen
"OK, took a look at the code and I have to admit that I seem to have lied. Not only amphib ships can help in unload, but small beaching craft as well. So my answer a few posts up is incorrect. Empty LB, LCVP, LCM can help in unload. Not by any direct transfer of troops between ships, but by contributing to the new load unload rate for the TF. This is a calculated ability of the TF to unload "over the beach". Empty Amphib ships are great, naval transports (AP/AK) are good, merchant ships (xAP, etc) suck.
And must be in the same TF."