slaytanic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:04 pm
Will you be updating the WAW version soon as well with the WITE .99 version newest changes?
Yes, I update them both simultaneously. World has more changes mainly AI.
If you are messing with it I can put out what I have now.
I was hoping to start a hotseat session WAW to check the balance so I'll be waiting for whenever you decide to put out the newer version. Just a q on the spotting rework - maritime bombers have 10 spotting for both the land and naval (at least in 0.95 TRP) - isnt that kind of calling for a gamey nonhistoric use of those, just park it somewhere close to the front line - carriers for instance do have only 2 for land spotting. Also, fighters at 5 spotting default take away the need for actual manual recon. Are those changes helpful to AI, would you recommend decreasing them by modding for MP?
Thanks for a great looking mod!
Last edited by slaytanic on Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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# TRP 0.5.1 World
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- (Bug) Move port at hex 371,182 to hex 371,180
- (Bug) Vichy can no longer use diplomacy influence
- (Bug) Fixed Trabzon weather (225,103)
- (Bug) Fixed Voronezh weather (224,77)
- (Bug) Fixed Kamyshin weather (236,81)
- (Bug) Fixed a text issue when Italy sent troops to Abyssinia or North Africa (message would show Eastern Front)
- (Bug) Fixed Italy Level 1 Tank Destroyer image being incorrect
- (Bug) Fixed an interface issue where Germany was on Production screen and the list extended out of the main area
- (New) Made tech research for all countries a little bit harder (due to breakthroughs not being modable)
- (New) France has some start researching techs
- (New) Vichy France starting techs adjusted based on France starting research
- (New) China can no longer use diplomacy influence
- (New) Japan Diplomacy Influence Max set to 3 and cost 50MP
- (New) Japan, several units got upgrades
- (New) Japan, Light Infantry now have the correct NATO symbol
- (New) Germany starts with level 1 tech in Submarines and all Submarines have been upgrade
- (New) Italy build max for HQ increased from 2 to 4
- (New) Added 2 new leaders for Italy
- (New) Reworked Standard Unit names for all countries to make it easier on the Production Menu
- (AI) USA - Production AI - Created West Coast
- (AI) USA - Production AI - modified East Coast based on West Coast changes
- (AI) Japan - Production AI - Created
- (AI) Japan - Transport AI - from Taiwan to China, Manchuria and Korea
- (AI) Japan - Guard AI - Added garrison for Korea, Manchuria and Chinese Coast
- (AI) Japan - Research AI - Added
- (AI) China - Production AI - Created
- (AI) China - Guard AI - Added garrison for Chinese Coast, Key Points and some initial defense lines
- (AI) China - Research AI - Added
- (AI) Com. China - Production AI - Created
- (AI) Com. China - Guard AI - Added garrison for Chinese Coast, Key Points and some initial defense lines
- (AI) France will no longer spend on research until end of 1940 (unless playing Level 4)
- (AI) Shrunk all research AI scripts to two per country
slaytanic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:04 pm
Will you be updating the WAW version soon as well with the WITE .99 version newest changes?
Yes, I update them both simultaneously. World has more changes mainly AI.
If you are messing with it I can put out what I have now.
I was hoping to start a hotseat session WAW to check the balance so I'll be waiting for whenever you decide to put out the newer version. Just a q on the spotting rework - maritime bombers have 10 spotting for both the land and naval (at least in 0.95 TRP) - isnt that kind of calling for a gamey nonhistoric use of those, just park it somewhere close to the front line - carriers for instance do have only 2 for land spotting. Also, fighters at 5 spotting default take away the need for actual manual recon. Are those changes helpful to AI, would you recommend decreasing them by modding for MP?
Thanks for a great looking mod!
That is a very good point.
What I can do is treat them both separately
I can leave Naval at Range 10
Make Land Range 3 which is one better than Tac and Medium but 2 less than a Fighter.
The argument could be made that at Sea it is easy to spot because you can see for miles as it is just water but on land your range is far less.
Sound good for balance? I can make the change for next release.
Found 1 major and 2 minor bugs so far
Major: UK and FRA are stuck in neutral status even after several turns, cant move UK units to FRA. BEF HQ that arrives via event to FRA can't use french supply and reinforce
Minor: 1.Korea has wrong flags for capital and its garrison unit
2. cant transport/amphib units from Nagoya hex/port
Also can't transport from the only chinese port, not sure if that's intentional or not
First impression on balance: because of large number of ships, subs get easily killed if discovered, especially cause all types of ships can harm subs now even with ASW 0.
slaytanic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:27 pm
Found 1 major and 2 minor bugs so far
Major: UK and FRA are stuck in neutral status even after several turns, cant move UK units to FRA. BEF HQ that arrives via event to FRA can't use french supply and reinforce
Minor: 1.Korea has wrong flags for capital and its garrison unit
2. cant transport/amphib units from Nagoya hex/port
Also can't transport from the only chinese port, not sure if that's intentional or not
First impression on balance: because of large number of ships, subs get easily killed if discovered, especially cause all types of ships can harm subs now even with ASW 0.
That is correct, UK and France do no longer cooperate. UK can have units in France but must use their HQ for supply. This is not a neutral status, it is how the non-cooperating works. This same rule applies to USSR.
Korea, yup on my to do list
Transporting from Chinese port? Do you mean Chinese transport out or Japanese transport out? If you are Chinese trying to transport it is not allowed. The Chinese can't build any transports at all.
Subs, yea I was thinking the same thing. I wanted to see if their was a way to make them more stealthy or increase their dive percentage (that I know can be done but looking into the stealth idea somehow)
Note: I have done no balance testing. The Europe theater is already sorta balanced as it is exactly the same as TRP Europe.
That is correct, UK and France do no longer cooperate. UK can have units in France but must use their HQ for supply. This is not a neutral status, it is how the non-cooperating works. This same rule applies to USSR.
Korea, yup on my to do list
Transporting from Chinese port? Do you mean Chinese transport out or Japanese transport out? If you are Chinese trying to transport it is not allowed. The Chinese can't build any transports at all.
Subs, yea I was thinking the same thing. I wanted to see if their was a way to make them more stealthy or increase their dive percentage (that I know can be done but looking into the stealth idea somehow)
Note: I have done no balance testing. The Europe theater is already sorta balanced as it is exactly the same as TRP Europe.
Sorry, didn't know about the UK-FRA change. Love the mod and how it allows for more tactics with the bigger map and more turns, just with the number of ships it could become a bit too much micromanage heavy, have you maybe considered compressing cruisers (few of them as a single unit)? That might help with both the subs getting discovered and the micromanaging
That is correct, UK and France do no longer cooperate. UK can have units in France but must use their HQ for supply. This is not a neutral status, it is how the non-cooperating works. This same rule applies to USSR.
Korea, yup on my to do list
Transporting from Chinese port? Do you mean Chinese transport out or Japanese transport out? If you are Chinese trying to transport it is not allowed. The Chinese can't build any transports at all.
Subs, yea I was thinking the same thing. I wanted to see if their was a way to make them more stealthy or increase their dive percentage (that I know can be done but looking into the stealth idea somehow)
Note: I have done no balance testing. The Europe theater is already sorta balanced as it is exactly the same as TRP Europe.
Sorry, didn't know about the UK-FRA change. Love the mod and how it allows for more tactics with the bigger map and more turns, just with the number of ships it could become a bit too much micromanage heavy, have you maybe considered compressing cruisers (few of them as a single unit)? That might help with both the subs getting discovered and the micromanaging
Shrinking down is always possible.
I figure its always best to start with the full OOB and get things rolling with that. If the correct answer is to slim it down well then we slim it down.
It is same when going to a Football game. Weather man says it won't rain but their are clouds over head. If you do not bring a poncho and it does rain you are soaked. If you bring a poncho and it does not rain the worst thing that happens is that you carried the poncho around.
LOL
Basically, lets see how it plays out and we can adjust if need be.
I can leave Naval at Range 10
Make Land Range 3 which is one better than Tac and Medium but 2 less than a Fighter.
The argument could be made that at Sea it is easy to spot because you can see for miles as it is just water but on land your range is far less.
Sound good for balance? I can make the change for next release.
NOTE: I just Release v0.5.1
Hi Lothos,
Yeah this is a good change with Maritime Bombers. Note my screen shot of the situ in Libya I posted in the WiE TRP-Mod MP test. There's a UK Maritime Bomber on the coast for making sure the sea lanes in its sector are clear with its passive spotting. Well its also passively spotting at range over the desert too.
So your point about spotting at sea but restricting the passive spotting on land is spot on! (couldn't help myself )
Anyways sounds good for balance and realistic too.
btw Unfortunate Son and I will probably on the whole keep posting on the WiE TRP-Mod thread in our MP test...as we are approaching Barbarossa and a clash with Rommel at Gazala. o7
This is with TRP-WiE V.0.9.7
I flew the UK maritime bomber from Cornwall to near Dover to show the passive spotting. You can look real deep into France's land hexes. Makes sense for the water but not land. At least with passive spotting. Of course if I want to risk a recce-air mission over France with these Seaplanes then so be it...but a fix as proposed would be more realistic.
I am not too familiar with the editor and didn't know it could be done to modify the passive ranges by changing/shortening the passive spotting range visa-vis land and sea separately.
Attachments
Maritime Bomber Passive Spotting.png (2.04 MiB) Viewed 907 times
OldCrowBalthazor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:38 am
This is with TRP-WiE V.0.9.7
I flew the UK maritime bomber from Cornwall to near Dover to show the passive spotting. You can look real deep into France's land hexes. Makes sense for the water but not land. At least with passive spotting. Of course if I want to risk a recce-air mission over France with these Seaplanes then so be it...but a fix as proposed would be more realistic.
I am not too familiar with the editor and didn't know it could be done to modify the passive ranges by changing/shortening the passive spotting range visa-vis land and sea separately.
Holy satellite imagery Batman. Thats way too much land spotting, I must say. I know Old Crow hasn't invested in satellite tech at least not yet. LOL
Lothos looking at the world map I believe the west coast of US is too close to Hawaiian islands. This could give the Allied player an unforeseen advantage, being that they have say one less turn to move units to Hawaii and or the entire Pacific actually. It should be about halfway between the US west coast and the Marshall islands. See map below.
I suggest to move the west coast considerable further up (north) or create a window in the upper right of map (somewhere in Alaska perhaps) where the allied player can place units than move to a portal hex which then spawns them near Hawaii. This is what Ellesar2 has done in his mod.
The other suggestions I have thus far are: Hawaiian islands seem too small. I know proportionally they may not be small but the port in Hawaii should be a bit larger (Pearl Harbor is an important factor). Also with these large navies (which I am a huge fan of) are great. My suggestion here would be to spawn them in increments perhaps so the players are not too overwhelmed managing them. I do know Old Crow and myself will be placing these lovely ladies of the sea into Taskforce groups ready for battles that lie ahead.
One more thing in the current game Old Crow and I are playing TRP-Europe The Africa Korp and the UK 8th army did not spawn recon units. Is this by design or a bug? I think if by design then we advocate having them because they are very useful.
Lothos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:40 pm
They got replaced with I believe Tank destroyers.
Air power replaced recon unit for seeing ahead.
Bummer...I like my Desert Rats! No matter.
I'm going to be downloading this tonight and look at the Pacific map. Ray (Unfortunate Son may have a point here with the American west coast. Going to compare the map projection your using. One thing I will do is compare the triangle Seattle-Hawaii-Tokyo distances. Note that flat maps distort globes as you know of course. The box idea like Ray suggested may do the trick with loop boxes on the far east side of the Pacific sans blob. Or the west coast blob may need to be shifted north along the edge.
Anyways...Like I said..I can help dig deeper into this west coast thing.
btw..the TRP-WiE MP test is going well. Its May 1941 and the razor's edge in Libya for both sides at the line just west of Tobruq. Barbarossa is coming soon..and we will keep you posted on that.
Also..side note. MP play and SP play are two completely different beasts here. I noted Taxman's reports on the other thread. Ray and I just do MP so we can't really weigh in on anything vs the AI here.
Elessar2 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:30 am
IIRC Lothos ran out of room for the US West Coast and didn't/couldn't shift the map around without causing other issues.
What about a box for the West Coast like you created for the UK with WitP?
Multiple loop boxes to points on the eastern edge with multiple destinations. Also time length considerations depending on destination from box with blob/ports to different destination loop boxes on eastern edge of map?
Also...I see the link for 5.0 on the first page of this thread, but see the readmes for v5.1. I maybe blind but I can't find it.
Edit: Never mind..tried the link saying 5.0 and downloaded 5.1. I'm just an excitable boy haha.
Note we going into second turn with Barbarossa. Look great! Finnish Front finally Finally! looks realistic. Will post screenshots later and will mull over the Pacific Map here with yours Elessar.
Elessar2 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:30 am
IIRC Lothos ran out of room for the US West Coast and didn't/couldn't shift the map around without causing other issues.
What about a box for the West Coast like you created for the UK with WitP?
Multiple loop boxes to points on the eastern edge with multiple destinations. Also time length considerations depending on destination from box with blob/ports to different destination loop boxes on eastern edge of map?
Also...I see the link for 5.0 on the first page of this thread, but see the readmes for v5.1. I maybe blind but I can't find it.
Edit: Never mind..tried the link saying 5.0 and downloaded 5.1. I'm just an excitable boy haha.
Note we going into second turn with Barbarossa. Look great! Finnish Front finally Finally! looks realistic. Will post screenshots later and will mull over the Pacific Map here with yours Elessar.
I fixed the link to say 0.5.1
I will be releasing 0.5.2 soon
To answer your question, I can not make the map any bigger. It is the best I can do. If I move it up north then the issue will be that its to close to Alaska. If I move it south then the issue is they can reach the south pacific to fast. I put it in the position that it is in as the best possible solution. The pacific is scaled appropriately and if you use the Google World map you will see the islands linged up properly when you do an X vs Y location.
Someone mentioned that Hawaii should be bigger. First Hawaii has no real large port. It is the largest island in the chain and has a Volcano on it. Honolulu is the main port (not Hawaii). Honolulu is a very small island (I been their several times now). One thing to note that Honolulu (in TRP) is a Primary Supply source which gives it a supply of 12. Your entire fleet can be right up against it and be in supply with no issues at all and it can repair two ships per turn (3 if you count Hawaii).
You have two locations to put land units on it. I suggest Hawaii you put an air unit and on Honolulu you put an Infantry Corps.
This is an example of the 'Box' idea I mentioned for the West Coast instead of the blob. It's in Elessar's WitP Mod and was an elegant solution for the UK. Image attached.
My feeling is that the West Coast was basically invulnerable to a major Japanese attack anyways, and using a box like in place it the WitP Mod would solve the problem with its current distance from Hawaii.
A bigger box with all the west coast ports would be needed probably...with multiple entry points on the East edge of the main map in the Pacific.
I would suggest at least 4 different entry points near the east edge. Examples would be Gulf of Alaska, North Pacific, Hawaii, South Pacific. (Ranges and time length would vary).
On a side note..looking at the colors of the counters concerning Japan, Nat China, and CP China. I would suggest Japan be Yellow, Nat China Light Blue, and CP China Red.
These are the color conventions usually used in wargames with these countries. Also, there are practical reasons for these color change suggestions. The Red Japanese ships are hard to see on blue (the water). Also, when people want to look at the Chinese, a Red would be better for the Communists. Yellow star on red is the PRC color schema. Lt Bluish-Green for Nationalist China also fits as Blue is the usual color designation for an ally of the USA (Green).
When I down loaded the TRP-World Mod...the first thing I noticed was the odd color choices for the note 3 powers. I contacted Ray (Unfortunate Son) about this and he said he could make the changes rather easily.
Anyways, the above are friendly suggestions. I am really impressed with your work.
Side note: Ray and I are really enjoying MP play testing TRP-WiE. The pace is excellent as we wind into Aug 1941. I post more screenshots as we proceed there. Balance seems on the whole fine. Continuous lines from the Gulf of Finland to the Black Sea are forming because we have the proper unit density now. (absent in vanilla WiE). Tactics like encirclements are needed now instead of the blunt force approach in vanilla. We even got a near historical Karelian campaign like was conducted in the Continuation War (Finland's campaign to retake her lands lost after the Winter War). Like wise Libya has been a seasaw.
Cheers
OldCrow
Attachments
UK Off Map Box [Elessar's WitP Mod].png (668.57 KiB) Viewed 774 times
OldCrowBalthazor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:35 am
This is an example of the 'Box' idea I mentioned for the West Coast instead of the blob. It's in Elessar's WitP Mod and was an elegant solution for the UK. Image attached.
My feeling is that the West Coast was basically invulnerable to a major Japanese attack anyways, and using a box like in place it the WitP Mod would solve the problem with its current distance from Hawaii.
A bigger box with all the west coast ports would be needed probably...with multiple entry points on the East edge of the main map in the Pacific.
I would suggest at least 4 different entry points near the east edge. Examples would be Gulf of Alaska, North Pacific, Hawaii, South Pacific. (Ranges and time length would vary).
On a side note..looking at the colors of the counters concerning Japan, Nat China, and CP China. I would suggest Japan be Yellow, Nat China Light Blue, and CP China Red.
These are the color conventions usually used in wargames with these countries. Also, there are practical reasons for these color change suggestions. The Red Japanese ships are hard to see on blue (the water). Also, when people want to look at the Chinese, a Red would be better for the Communists. Yellow star on red is the PRC color schema. Lt Bluish-Green for Nationalist China also fits as Blue is the usual color designation for an ally of the USA (Green).
When I down loaded the TRP-World Mod...the first thing I noticed was the odd color choices for the note 3 powers. I contacted Ray (Unfortunate Son) about this and he said he could make the changes rather easily.
Anyways, the above are friendly suggestions. I am really impressed with your work.
Side note: Ray and I are really enjoying MP play testing TRP-WiE. The pace is excellent as we wind into Aug 1941. I post more screenshots as we proceed there. Balance seems on the whole fine. Continuous lines from the Gulf of Finland to the Black Sea are forming because we have the proper unit density now. (absent in vanilla WiE). Tactics like encirclements are needed now instead of the blunt force approach in vanilla. We even got a near historical Karelian campaign like was conducted in the Continuation War (Finland's campaign to retake her lands lost after the Winter War). Like wise Libya has been a seasaw.
Cheers
OldCrow
Thanks for your feedback
The problem with the box idea is that their is no were to put it. The Map is at maximum size so I would need to slice something off someplace to put it. The other issue is that the box idea would be an AI nightmare.
As for the colors, we can not change the colors of minors specifically. They have one raw template design. As for China and Japan I went with colors that are used in the board game World In Flames which is Yellow for China and Red for Japan.
Lothos wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:43 am
Thanks for your feedback
The problem with the box idea is that their is no were to put it. The Map is at maximum size so I would need to slice something off someplace to put it. The other issue is that the box idea would be an AI nightmare.
As for the colors, we can not change the colors of minors specifically. They have one raw template design. As for China and Japan I went with colors that are used in the board game World In Flames which is Yellow for China and Red for Japan.
Ah...box placement in Alaska's interior. No matter...didn't consider the AI. Elessar's WitP Mod is MP only.
Concerning colors...I thought I recognized where I saw the odd choice of colors for Japan and China before...in was WiF.
I'd still consider at least swapping the colors of the Majors Japan to Yellow and China to Lt Blue or something else at least conform to the SC convention.
Japan for sure as red is hard to read on blue (the sea).
)
