The Montenegro Gambit Test 2

[snooky51]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: snooky51

I am almost tempted to end the game, but I think it will be good experience to have to play off my back foot so early. Not like losing this one will damage my pride too much.

That's the spirit......even though you got "had by a cad", you are the true winner here snooky51 [8D]

Looks like I will end up being the real winner, his all-east plan back fired. It is August 14, 1915 and the western front is at the Wesser River and he currently has only an Austrian Corp and German cavalry between myself and Berlin. His left flank in the South is solid but is in imminent danger of being enveloped. Krakow and all of Galicia has fallen. Romania is about to enter so Bulgaria (who joined a turn previous) will not be able to plug his holes. Berlin by Christmas maybe?

[AshFall]

So, I feel I have to ask. Is this exploit considered fixed now by patches?

I had the impression, when reading through this thread, that is was.

However, I'm playing three games now aside from the first that I handily lost to Will, one against him as the central powers and two as the Entente against others. Both my games as the entente are up against this strat, and neither are going very well.

In one my opponent evacuated Galicia in the starting turns, letting the Russians take the important objectives there and setting up a good defensive line along the river. The subsequent entry of Romania with events and Diplo as well as maneuvers in Italy and in Egypt has made that a game at least, though looking grim.

The Second one is just CP steamroller, did not get the chance to grab anything before he slaughtered Poland and is rolling up the Russian lines.

What's the verdict?

[Bavre]

ORIGINAL: AshFall

So, I feel I have to ask. Is this exploit considered fixed now by patches?

I had the impression, when reading through this thread, that is was.

However, I'm playing three games now aside from the first that I handily lost to Will, one against him as the central powers and two as the Entente against others. Both my games as the entente are up against this strat, and neither are going very well.

In one my opponent evacuated Galicia in the starting turns, letting the Russians take the important objectives there and setting up a good defensive line along the river. The subsequent entry of Romania with events and Diplo as well as maneuvers in Italy and in Egypt has made that a game at least, though looking grim.

The Second one is just CP steamroller, did not get the chance to grab anything before he slaughtered Poland and is rolling up the Russian lines.

What's the verdict?

I think there might be a misunderstanding: The overall strategy I use here (very aggressive Russia first combined with a strong push on the balkans) is NOT the exploit! It is however a very strong strategy on its own, especially if the Entente player isn't prepared and plays his Russia like you'd do vs a Schlieffen.

If you want details on the exploit, check out the original M-Gambit thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4967918
starting at post 15. One thing I overlooked back then was that I already had a boost from the end of Luxembourg, so what I experienced there was actually not the sole boost from Montenegro but the combined Montenegro-Luxembourg effect that turned my guys into ze Kaisers spacemarines.

[AshFall]

ORIGINAL: Bavre

ORIGINAL: AshFall

So, I feel I have to ask. Is this exploit considered fixed now by patches?

I had the impression, when reading through this thread, that is was.

However, I'm playing three games now aside from the first that I handily lost to Will, one against him as the central powers and two as the Entente against others. Both my games as the entente are up against this strat, and neither are going very well.

In one my opponent evacuated Galicia in the starting turns, letting the Russians take the important objectives there and setting up a good defensive line along the river. The subsequent entry of Romania with events and Diplo as well as maneuvers in Italy and in Egypt has made that a game at least, though looking grim.

The Second one is just CP steamroller, did not get the chance to grab anything before he slaughtered Poland and is rolling up the Russian lines.

What's the verdict?

I think there might be a misunderstanding: The overall strategy I use here (very aggressive Russia first combined with a strong push on the balkans) is NOT the exploit! It is however a very strong strategy on its own, especially if the Entente player isn't prepared and plays his Russia like you'd do vs a Schlieffen.

If you want details on the exploit, check out the original M-Gambit thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4967918
starting at post 15. One thing I overlooked back then was that I already had a boost from the end of Luxembourg, so what I experienced there was actually not the sole boost from Montenegro but the combined Montenegro-Luxembourg effect that turned my guys into ze Kaisers spacemarines.

Yeah, my understanding was that the "exploity" part was the super-soldiers that spring up from all the conquest bonuses.

Though I wonder a bit at the strat allowing the guaranteed collapse of Serbia (as far as I can see without any available counterplay) by the end of 1914. It's hard to see that selling off all tech chits to make an uncounterable attack on Serbia/Montenegro/Albania isnt borderline exploity regardless?

[Bavre]

Hmm, yes you could make a point for that. The one thing I can say for certain is that it's not nearly as strong as the original version. Back then I could effortlessly walk over opponents with 10 times+ my MP experience, making any further strategy 100% redundant. (To be clear, I never used it on an unsuspecting opponent! Several veterans just wanted to see the exploit first hand and/or try to withstand it).

If you want, we could make a very quick (and maybe limited) test. For example just the Serbia theatre with me as Entente trying to contain the fallout?

[AshFall]

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Hmm, yes you could make a point for that. The one thing I can say for certain is that it's not nearly as strong as the original version. Back then I could effortlessly walk over opponents with 10 times+ my MP experience, making any further strategy 100% redundant. (To be clear, I never used it on an unsuspecting opponent! Several veterans just wanted to see the exploit first hand and/or try to withstand it).

If you want, we could make a very quick (and maybe limited) test. For example just the Serbia theatre with me as Entente trying to contain the fallout?

I'd be down for that.

We would need to do the land fronts and entente Norway sabotage to simulate econ drain properly to evaluate costs.

I figure if I, with a total of one finished and three ongoing games under my belt, can pull it off anyone can.

[AshFall]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Unfortunately, I edited over the screen shot of the Eastern Front. Bavre can pull his next turn 4 and document the rest. The image uploaded speaks for itself. I'm done with this. Its going to take a Major Fix to correct this Montenegro Gambit Exploit.

>> pm mssg copy to Bavre:

>Go ahead and do your turn and document it if you want. This game is big time broken as it is now. I put out a half a dozen proposals to fix this. What ever they decide...It has to be MAJOR regarding Cetinje. As far as I can see...that town needs to be a fortress with a corp in it..plus snipping of the railroad like I described..plus a second capital. I have no interest in proposing fixes or testing on my own or in a MP anymore.

Thanks though for your time, we make great AAR'S and perhaps when this is resolved we can do an MP with SC-WW1 or one of the other titles.

cheers O7, Old Crow

I second this, I would love to see a proper AAR from both perspectives with the both of you. Laughed out loud at several of the exhanges!

[Bavre]

ORIGINAL: AshFall
I second this, I would love to see a proper AAR from both perspectives with the both of you. Laughed out loud at several of the exhanges!

You might be interested in OldCrows match vs mdsmall then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckaEw01_Gko
It's a modded game and mdsmall didn't go crazy vs Serbia in the opening, but overall his strategy vs Russia here is pretty similar to mine. (mdsmall was also one of the vict.. err I mean willing test subjects of the early M-gambit)
A new match between OldCrow and me will have to wait a bit however. He's in too many games with his new channel already, but we are in contact for a possible future match.

[Bavre]

ORIGINAL: AshFall

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Hmm, yes you could make a point for that. The one thing I can say for certain is that it's not nearly as strong as the original version. Back then I could effortlessly walk over opponents with 10 times+ my MP experience, making any further strategy 100% redundant. (To be clear, I never used it on an unsuspecting opponent! Several veterans just wanted to see the exploit first hand and/or try to withstand it).

If you want, we could make a very quick (and maybe limited) test. For example just the Serbia theatre with me as Entente trying to contain the fallout?

I'd be down for that.

We would need to do the land fronts and entente Norway sabotage to simulate econ drain properly to evaluate costs.

I figure if I, with a total of one finished and three ongoing games under my belt, can pull it off anyone can.

OK, I'll host a standard match with me as Entente, pw in pm. We'll play the opening phase as if it's a full match and then see where we go from there.

[AshFall]

Aaaaand we're off!

All the standard shenanigans ongoing.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Good luck boys! btw..mdsmall did a Russia First strategy..worked well. Not quite the Montenegro Gambit...but real strong against Russia. The Montenegro Gambit could still be an issue, but Bavre was right about this with the earlier version of SC-WW1:

Luxemburg+Montenegro surrender buff timed with pincer movement cutting Russian Poland off plus losing her deployments and no way to defend or counter it by any Entente forces was the eXploity thing we needed to expose. It was during the course of the epic thread started by Chernobyl that we all came to realize the full extend of the problem...hence the numerous test done by many of us private or public on the forum.

Bill and Hubert corrected a lot of the Russian deficiencies because of the Montenegro Gambit Tests. [&o]

Here's a link to my playlist of the match between me and mdsmall with his Balkan Variations Mod, which help to address some of the short comingings the Entente have regarding Greece for example...brought to full light by all the Montenegro Gambit Tests, Chernobyl's forum thread, and other 'Serbia early take down' threads.

Here's the link as mdsmall uses a Russia First strategy and a slow but sure Serbia take down effort:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... mvHT32A8VI

[Bavre]

Ok, test concluded and as far as I am concerned the earlier problems are definitely solved by the patch. The overall strategy is still viable and strong, but not nearly the effortless autowin it used to be. Btw, it was really fun to play that thing as Entente for a change.

[AshFall]

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Ok, test concluded and as far as I am concerned the earlier problems are definitely solved by the patch. The overall strategy is still viable and strong, but not nearly the effortless autowin it used to be. Btw, it was really fun to play that thing as Entente for a change.

Haha, I bet!

I need to practice it a bit more and then I want a rematch, see if I can change your mind about it!

[AshFall]

I just want nudge you two again. I think it would be of awesome teaching value to many new and intermediate players to see two veterans going at it in a detailed AAR where you both describe your thoughts and tactics, long term planning and so on.

Plzplz pretty plz?

ORIGINAL: Bavre

ORIGINAL: AshFall
I second this, I would love to see a proper AAR from both perspectives with the both of you. Laughed out loud at several of the exhanges!

You might be interested in OldCrows match vs mdsmall then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckaEw01_Gko
It's a modded game and mdsmall didn't go crazy vs Serbia in the opening, but overall his strategy vs Russia here is pretty similar to mine. (mdsmall was also one of the vict.. err I mean willing test subjects of the early M-gambit)
A new match between OldCrow and me will have to wait a bit however. He's in too many games with his new channel already, but we are in contact for a possible future match.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Can't believe its been almost a year since we did these two tests. Bill and Hubert heard us and gathered up all the suggestions to make some great changes to this wonderful game! Cheers.[8D]