Sadly - Enough is Enough!

[Soar_Slitherine]

For example, I've seen it where you can set custom pull points to a specific hex and it'll actually increase the the amount of available logistics points available in prior hexes where that is both completely counter intuitive and contrary to what I'm trying to do. That's just one example of a dozen or more issues I've found with Pull.

Okay, based on that, let me take a guess at where your difficulty is.

If available logistics is being produced at hex A and is pulled to hex B, that will always increase the logistics points available on every "prior hex" on the route between A and B. The trucks or trains go from hex A to hex B and can freely pick up or drop off different cargo between hexes on the way, depending on what needs to be shipped where along the route. In addition, if the distance is long enough for logistics point falloff to be in play, there will be less logistics points further way from A because fewer trucks or trains are able to make it that far.

That's the most basic mechanics of the logistics system that are required to understand how anything else about it works. If the problem is elsewhere, it can't be resolved with the information provided, and logistics issues are a real pain to talk through without reference to a savegame, as zgrssd noted.

[KingHalford]

Thanks for the help, I think I didn't really explain myself well enough, that's my fault.

I'm pretty experienced with the logistics in the game, both push and pull styles. The problem I'm having is that when I sit and work out by hand where LIP is going, the Pull system just has unpredictable results. I really can't be bothered to search through my 100 episode series to find my rant on it but there's an example there of why I find it so annoying. I can't even remember exactly what it was but it was just doing something completely unexpected and random. It's probably best explained as an analogy:

Let's say I have three cookies and three people, and I have an algorithm that splits the cookies evenly between three people, they should end up with a cookie each. The Pull system cookie algorithm would make a mistake somehow, but figuring out where it went wrong would be completely inscrutible without going into the code. I'm a programmer so I'm more than capable of doing that, but I really don't care about it enough to do that. I'm lazy and it's not THAT big of a deal.

Edit: I should probably add that I actually really like the system, I just can't always figure out exactly what it's doing and rather than be frustrated by that I've learned to just accept it's a bit of a black box.

[KingHalford]

Your description is like me asking for a formula for integral calculus and you replying with a summary of what integral calculus does instead of how it does it.

I know what it does and how it's supposed to work, that much is in the manual, but the results you get from making changes to it do not reflect that. For example, I've seen it where you can set custom pull points to a specific hex and it'll actually increase the the amount of available logistics points available in prior hexes where that is both completely counter intuitive and contrary to what I'm trying to do. That's just one example of a dozen or more issues I've found with Pull.

Stop talking about theoretical stuff.
Show me a savegame. Or there is nothing to talk about, as I can not read your mind about what your issue is.

I don't think I need your help thanks, so keep your demands and the obnoxious attitude to yourself.

[Malevolence]

Yes, the logistic system can provide odd numbers sometimes that are difficult to grok.

The processes and rules have been described (accurately) many times by many players here.

The devil, however, is in the details of the sequential procedural operations the game runs. Different conditions (i.e., State) cause those operations give somewhat counter-intuitive results sometimes.

This isn't related directly to Shadow Empire, but for an example, A* (a common search and path algorithm) is well understood and will certainly find a best path or fail. However, what happens when the graph actually has more than one "best" traversal with equal costs? Those details are ignored and only the first best traversal is provided.

In other words, knowing the algorithm isn't enough information to provide a perfect view of what is happening inside the game. The models that store the game's state impact what nodes are tested or selected before others. All the calculations are done sequentially and those sequences (e.g., traversing the nodes) matter too.

In the below example image-- which supply route will provide the pull points to Movuram? Two routes, equal distant from the target factory. Maybe both? The answer is, "it depends."

I've compared logistics in Shadow Empire to fluids passing through pipelines, but a better analogy would be fluids passing through groups of separate hoses (from truck stations, rail, etc.) passing through pipelines. Now think about the issues with sequential processing I describe above. Instead, I suggest simply not considering those details and focusing on the "enough works." (i.e. enough logistics to keep things working)

Also don't worry too much about zgrssd. English isn't his native language and he isn't culturally or emotionally built for the politeness we might expect. His insights are actually very good and his writing is worth considering nonetheless.

example.png (1.13 MiB) Viewed 1325 times

[KingHalford]

Thanks, you've put into words what I was struggling/too tired to do. I've studied machine learning so I know a bit about the algorithms used. My overall point was that I've stopped trying to look too hard at the fine details underlying these games now because I think that beyond a certain base level it's kind of a waste of time. I don't need to know exactly what algorithm the logistics system uses because it mostly works just fine, it's just occasionally that the game breaks the rule of "if you're going to cheat, hand-wave or make a mistake, at least hide it" and then it can feel frustrating.

I've found the best way to deal with logistics in Shadow Empire is not to stretch them too far. For the most part, if you allow for some give in the system, you'll not have any drastic problems.

"Also don't worry too much about zgrssd. English isn't his native language and he isn't culturally or emotionally built for the politeness we might expect. His insights are actually very good and his writing is worth considering nonetheless."

No worries, I've travelled all over and met all kinds of people. I don't take it personally, I just speak the way I'm spoken to, that way there's no misunderstanding.

[Anthropoid]

Thanks, you've put into words what I was struggling/too tired to do. I've studied machine learning so I know a bit about the algorithms used. My overall point was that I've stopped trying to look too hard at the fine details underlying these games now because I think that beyond a certain base level it's kind of a waste of time. I don't need to know exactly what algorithm the logistics system uses because it mostly works just fine, it's just occasionally that the game breaks the rule of "if you're going to cheat, hand-wave or make a mistake, at least hide it" and then it can feel frustrating.

I've found the best way to deal with logistics in Shadow Empire is not to stretch them too far. For the most part, if you allow for some give in the system, you'll not have any drastic problems.

"Also don't worry too much about zgrssd. English isn't his native language and he isn't culturally or emotionally built for the politeness we might expect. His insights are actually very good and his writing is worth considering nonetheless."

No worries, I've travelled all over and met all kinds of people. I don't take it personally, I just speak the way I'm spoken to, that way there's no misunderstanding.

So, pretty much like real life.

Not an engineer, but I did work as a delivery boy for Amazon for a while. All I can say is: in complex systems with many points of failure, some degree of unpredictability is a realistic expectation! Skimming this thread, it sounds like Vic has managed to create one of the most realistic representations of a national logistics system so far

[Pankatron]

Thanks, you've put into words what I was struggling/too tired to do. I've studied machine learning so I know a bit about the algorithms used. My overall point was that I've stopped trying to look too hard at the fine details underlying these games now because I think that beyond a certain base level it's kind of a waste of time. I don't need to know exactly what algorithm the logistics system uses because it mostly works just fine, it's just occasionally that the game breaks the rule of "if you're going to cheat, hand-wave or make a mistake, at least hide it" and then it can feel frustrating.

I've found the best way to deal with logistics in Shadow Empire is not to stretch them too far. For the most part, if you allow for some give in the system, you'll not have any drastic problems.

"Also don't worry too much about zgrssd. English isn't his native language and he isn't culturally or emotionally built for the politeness we might expect. His insights are actually very good and his writing is worth considering nonetheless."

No worries, I've travelled all over and met all kinds of people. I don't take it personally, I just speak the way I'm spoken to, that way there's no misunderstanding.

So, pretty much like real life.

Not an engineer, but I did work as a delivery boy for Amazon for a while. All I can say is: in complex systems with many points of failure, some degree of unpredictability is a realistic expectation! Skimming this thread, it sounds like Vic has managed to create one of the most realistic representations of a national logistics system so far

Real life? Now imagine this, there is a war going on at the border of your nation. You are a supply truck driver stationed in a city nearby to the aforementioned border. There is a large ration storage, ammo storage and even quite a few pieces of replacement equipment stationed in your city. You receive a call from the HQ to start your job as a logi. Now get this, Instead of getting instructions over the radio to bring supplies to the troops at the border, you know, the closest and most neediest place for supplies. You instead have to drive to HQ 500 miles away, receive instructions after dropping off grain from your city, and drive 500 miles more to the border you were stationed next to with stale HQ grain they told you to pack up. Whoops, you can't reach the troops because you ran out of gas provided from the HQ, better go home to HQ! Even this assignment is not guaranteed, since you might be directed by the HQ to go down empty roads for absolutely no reason. I dislike these waterpipe/river logistics with every fibre of my being since it makes me lose IQ points every time I think about it.

[Ghost1069]

It really feels like pretty much all of comments like this on the game boil down to a manchild not being able to accept that this game is simply harder that they can manage. Perhaps it is age, I don´t know.

I am not a genius and I have not being playing wargames for 40 years. I have played dozens of games of Shadow Empire, however, and not even once did I find a problem with logistics that I could not solve in less than 2 minutes of thinking and, only so often, reading.

I simply do not understand all these people complaining about it. Seriously. Have a bit of humility and stop lashing out at the game and the dev because you can´t deal with this difficulty.

As for myself, I like it just the way it is.

[phyroks]

I think the pull points just made the logistics worse for those who want to try handle them even little (i think their point was to help ppl who dont want to touch logistics, and in that im sure its better than nothing)

I do enjoy the logistics and trying to make sure the paths are correct, but I never understand why by default troop supply is not allowed to use 100% of the points on the road?.... mind bogling.

And the more you learn about the logistics the more you are tempted to make new SHQ to reduce the logistic needs.

If you want to play with logistics A)Remove all pull points from use B) SHQ to UNIT 100% in the SHQ unit admin C) just delete the extra crossings in roads >.<

[zgrssd]

I do enjoy the logistics and trying to make sure the paths are correct, but I never understand why by default troop supply is not allowed to use 100% of the points on the road?.... mind bogling.

Because doing so means retreiving the Production can not happen, stalling your ability to build replacements this turn and run the economy next turn.

Why do people insist interfering with the logistics percentages, when it is trying to keep the country running despite you messing up the logistics width?

[phyroks]

I do enjoy the logistics and trying to make sure the paths are correct, but I never understand why by default troop supply is not allowed to use 100% of the points on the road?.... mind bogling.

Because doing so means retreiving the Production can not happen, stalling your ability to build replacements this turn and run the economy next turn.

Why do people insist interfering with the logistics percentages, when it is trying to keep the country running despite you messing up the logistics width?

By default this is not the most optimal choice as you dont want your troops starving or lacking ammunition/fuel, zones/cities stockpile items and send them later to SHQ, its possible that there is situation where you would rather starve the troops or take combat penalty, but way less likely situation.

[zgrssd]

I do enjoy the logistics and trying to make sure the paths are correct, but I never understand why by default troop supply is not allowed to use 100% of the points on the road?.... mind bogling.

Because doing so means retreiving the Production can not happen, stalling your ability to build replacements this turn and run the economy next turn.

Why do people insist interfering with the logistics percentages, when it is trying to keep the country running despite you messing up the logistics width?

By default this is not the most optimal choice as you dont want your troops starving or lacking ammunition/fuel, zones/cities stockpile items and send them later to SHQ, its possible that there is situation where you would rather starve the troops or take combat penalty, but way less likely situation.

Supply is literally Step 2. Before Zone retreival.
It does not interfere with the Troops getting every supply that is possible.

And if you think it is bad when troops starve due poor connection to them, wait till your troops and workers starve because your SHQ could not retreive any food to send. Because gathering Food to send out next turn is one thing that Zone -> SHQ does.

[phyroks]

And if you think it is bad when troops starve due poor connection to them, wait till your troops and workers starve because your SHQ could not retreive any food to send. Because gathering Food to send out next turn is one thing that Zone -> SHQ does.

I highly doubt you have so bad logistics that ammo/fuel to troops would often disturb logistics between own towns, but there is always more than few times in a game when you conquer new city and for few turns logistics would just take over emptying the town instead of supplying troops there.

But like some wise guy once said.

Show me a savegame. Or there is nothing to talk about

[zgrssd]

And if you think it is bad when troops starve due poor connection to them, wait till your troops and workers starve because your SHQ could not retreive any food to send. Because gathering Food to send out next turn is one thing that Zone -> SHQ does.

I highly doubt you have so bad logistics that ammo/fuel to troops will disturb logistics often between own towns, but there is always more than few times in a game when you conquer new city and for few turns logistics would just take over emptying the town instead of supplying troops there.

If you are never going to reach 100%, why set the logistics maximum to it?

Your very argument is "this can happen".

[phyroks]

I just said when it happens, maybe read.

[deMangler]

I just read this whole thread - reminds me of a joke, of which there are may versions (below quoted from internet).

An engineer is working at his desk in his office. His cigarette falls off the desk into the wastebasket, causing the papers within to burst into flames. The engineer looks around, sees a fire extinguisher, grabs it, puts out the flames, and goes back to work.

A physicist is working at his desk in another office and the same thing happens. He looks at the fire, looks at the fire extinguisher, and thinks "Fire requires fuel plus oxygen plus heat. The fire extinguisher will remove both the oxygen and the heat in the wastebasket. Ergo, no fire." He grabs the extinguisher, puts out the flames, and goes back to work.

A mathematician is working at his desk in another office and the same thing happens. He looks at the fire, looks at the fire extinguisher, and thinks for a minute, says "Ah! A solution exists!" and goes back to work.

Shadow Empire is often criticised for it's difficulties and mechanics that are either regarded as unnecessary or obscure or badly implemented. It is also often praised for the sheer variety of ways it can be played, I would add to that, ways that it can be enjoyed.

After spending a couple of hundred hours and many games and readings and tutorial-watchings, I decided to just play it, as someone up-thread suggested as well. That resulted in the AAR I posted in another part of this forum.
In that game I simply ignored the mechanics I didn't get and played. I lost - badly - but had so, so, so much fun just interacting with the world as presented and playing along with it.

Now, probably a thousand hours of gameplay later I think I do get a lot more of the mechanics, including the logistics. That came through playing a lot of games though, and I am not sure I could explain it more simply than zgrssd and others have done.
Logistics seems to be the game mechanic that is easiest to compare to other games and reality - especially for old-timers like us, but there are a lot of other complex obscure mechanics in this game that are as significant to the numbers, but can just fly under a players radar because they won't even be noticed for several hundred hours (or maybe that is just me)

I can enjoy this game as an engineer, a physicist or a mathematician, or as whatever it is I am. That is something that is unique and special about this game, and this thread reminded me of that.

[finrodfelagund]

I do enjoy the logistics and trying to make sure the paths are correct, but I never understand why by default troop supply is not allowed to use 100% of the points on the road?.... mind bogling.

Why do people insist interfering with the logistics percentages, when it is trying to keep the country running despite you messing up the logistics width?

To ensure recruits and supplies are flowing to the front and there is a country left to run of course

[zgrssd]

I do enjoy the logistics and trying to make sure the paths are correct, but I never understand why by default troop supply is not allowed to use 100% of the points on the road?.... mind bogling.

Why do people insist interfering with the logistics percentages, when it is trying to keep the country running despite you messing up the logistics width?

To ensure recruits and supplies are flowing to the front and there is a country left to run of course

Yeah. Those are the thing the default settings make sure of. The whole "keep the country running despite you messing up the logistics width" part of what I wrote.

A small reminder:
1. Supplies are already the first step
2. Running the country are steps 2+3
3. You would have to tax out two of the default percentages to even get close to running out of total logistics under the SHQ.
4. Replacements are last, because sending more people to the front to starve is pointless. And usually it is the connection to the troops that is the weak part.