German side of a mirror match

[chaos45]

ya the soviet was staying to long at Stalino, is getting what they deserve with that encirclement. Mud even gave him 2 free weeks to fix the situation and they still hung out to die....silly play IMO.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

ya the soviet was staying to long at Stalino, is getting what they deserve with that encirclement. Mud even gave him 2 free weeks to fix the situation and they still hung out to die....silly play IMO.

I don't know. If it were me I would have held on as well. The Stalino-Gorlovka line is a powerful anchor for any defensive line here. During the Soviet winter offensive (starting at post #91 above) I held on to this line for quite a long time and found myself pocketed twice, though never isolated. Maybe I'm just stubborn that way.[;)]

What I would have done differently would have been to reinforce the 4 hexes between Gorlovka and the Donets more. There were too many opportunities for me to successfully hasty attack allowing both my infantry and panzers to advance further than should have been the case. If that means piling 3 divisions into the front line simply to try to get the fort up to level one, so be it.

You can compare the outcome here to my own defensive set up for turn 51 in my Soviet game. I fully expect that I am going to have a number of divisions isolated. I am willing to accept this for the sake of preventing a penetration into the operational depths of my line, which is what happened here.

[chaos45]

soviet play in 1942 = space for time while trying to keep your trained army intact with out how WITE works.

Both games the Germans have done fairly average or below average in 1941 so both games have overly strong Soviet armies going into 1942, which is why your thoughts are sacrificing an Army at Stalino is worth while. Going into 1942 with Soviets at 6+million men = probably a short ending of the war for the Germans. I still think its sloppy play on the Soviets part to lose a trained army there when they had 2 turns to withdraw from the super obvious trap.

[CapAndGown]

Since you mention army sizes, I thought I would post a comparison of the army sizes in the two games.

Bitburger has almost 900k fewer men in his red army and 2.5k fewer planes. (He is also still flying I-16s and I-153s.) On the other hand, he has many, many more tanks in his red army than I have in mine.

[chaos45]

you are doing better statistically number wise in both games...you are already over the 100k artillery tubes number....that is very bad for the Germans as soviet artillery actually inflicts most of the German losses in the combats.

[CapAndGown]

June 18, 1942

Because of the mud this turn I was not expecting to do much, but then it turned out the Soviets conducted a general withdrawal between the Don and Donets so we are moving into the vacated territory.

The Soviets put some tank brigades up on the front line adjacent to my panzer formations around Stalino. I am not sure what the point of this tactic is. Drive up fatigue? Attrition? Anyway, I knocked aside a few to widen the corridor our panzers are holding.

Heavy, heavy interdiction this turn. Some of it was very far afield. I got lucky that my air losses were not higher. I have now reigned in the level bombers, limiting their range to just 150 miles. I don't need them getting jumped outside of escort range. (This is what happened to Bitburger a few times in my Soviet game.)

Almost all my armies are now significantly overloaded except for the Panzer Armies where I am keeping the number a combat units assigned within the command capacity limit. I have a few corps that are overloaded as well; those that are in quiet sectors. And I don't even have everyone assigned. I have 3 divisions sitting on the Dnepr in OKH reserve digging trenches.

I finally decided to promote Manstein to command of an army: 4th Panzer. Model is in charge of a Panzer corps currently. I am looking around for a likely infantry army to put him in charge of.

[CapAndGown]

June 25, 1942

After a seemingly interminable fall, winter and spring, campaigning season is finally here.

This is just a quick update on the Stalino pocket. Our forces drove down the left bank of the Mius river to Taganrog bay and captured the port, encircling 24 rifle divisions, 3 tank brigades and an Army HQ. I have not finished the turn; there is much more to do around Tula, but I thought I would provide this quick update, being very, very pleased with the results.

[chaos45]

An the above screenshot is why i said the soviet play was silly bad. At least 2 entire soviet armies encircled for no real gain. I count at least 18 divisions...that is as huge loss for The start of the summer 1942. Esp now that the Army support units are also destroyed.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

An the above screenshot is why i said the soviet play was silly bad. At least 2 entire soviet armies encircled for no real gain. I count at least 18 divisions...that is as huge loss for The start of the summer 1942. Esp now that the Army support units are also destroyed.

I must say, I am surprised that he stuck around. I would have bugged out with everyone I could get out of there. Perhaps he was thinking that a 50 mile advance was beyond the capabilities of the panzers. They were, after all, low on fuel last turn. But they gassed up fine once the ground dried up. I was only expecting to get 10-12 divisions at most last turn. Instead, I have 24 firmly pocketed, plus 3 tank brigades and an HQ. (The HQ ended up in the pocket due to a poor route move. Still, it should have bugged out with everyone else not zoc-locked inside the pocket.)

[CapAndGown]

Turn 54 continued (June 15)

The Germans launched their main offensive east of Tula: Fall Fuchsia. (It was either that or neon pink.)

4th Panzer Army is now an all infantry army, while Panzer Armies 2 & 3 are all mobile divisions. After the infantry blasted away the Russian front line 3rd Panzer Army headed east from it bases west of Tula to smash through the enemy's second and third lines, achieving operational freedom. It was then debated whether to send 2nd Panzer Army (based to the southwest of Tula) through the same gap and strengthen the flanks of the corridor formed by the 3rd Panzer, or to attempt a second penetration and thus create a pocket. In the end, it was decided to attempt a second penetration. We thus achieved a pocket, though it is not closed as tightly as one might wish. It is possible, though perhaps not likely, that the Russians will be able to open the pocket. Inside are 9 rifle divisions, 2 tank brigades, and one Army HQ. Our northern flank at least benefits by using the Pronya river to help stiffen that front.

I will assure you that Fall Fuchsia has a strategic goal. We are not primarily interested in just creating pockets and destroying enemy formations, though of course we will form pockets when possible. I will not say more just yet about the overall objective of the operation, except to say that it is rather ambitious and I am not sure we can accomplish our goal. So far, however, we are off to a strong start. Reconnaissance indicates that the Russians are most concentrated around Moscow. They are clearly focused on saving that city. I can say that this works to the benefit of our operational plan. (One area where our plan did not pan out was in attracting Russian reserves down south around Rostov. That was one goal of the offensive around Stalino, though our other goal of denying the Russians of these population centers will be achieved shorty.)

[redrum68]

Very nice Stalino pocket. My guess is he just got overconfident and misjudged that you could achieve that large of a pocket. Soviets are still doing pretty well in this game but that's definitely a step in the right direction for ya.

[CapAndGown]

Due to health issues, my opponent has had to quit this game. Nevertheless, I would like to carry on. If someone would like to take over the Soviet side in this game (and the German side in my other game, perhaps) let me know.

EDIT: We have a taker for this game. My other game is still open.

[CapAndGown]

July 2, 1942

So the game continues with a new opponent.

The pockets we formed last turn were cleaned up, though 3 divisions still remain to be finished off. 30 rifle divisions and 6 tank brigades surrendered for a total of over 400k men. Plus, another division shattered during my offensive operations for a total of 31 rifle divisions destroyed this turn. Another 4 divisions were pocketed and will be destroyed next turn, making for 38 rifle divisions destroyed in 2 turns. That should prove helpful.

Meanwhile our drive east of Tula continues. This turn we made another 90 miles progress. Our flanks are becoming extended. Fortunately, we are not relying on the Rumanians and Italians to guard them. [;)]

[CapAndGown]

July 9, 1942

Not much to report. Destroyed the divisions that were pocketed last turn and continued the drive east from Tula. The Soviets are stripping units from Leningrad and (I believe) Moscow to throw in front of our panzers. The thickness of the enemy defenses is troubling. I need to do something to draw off some of these forces if we are to achieve out strategic objective.

The Luftwaffe took the turn off to reduce fatigue. As a result, our casualties were no doubt higher than they might otherwise have been. The air force will return to action next turn.

[Grognard1812]

Well done, with the Soviet Army losing over 30 divisions and 400 Thousand troops in two turns.

In my opinion, a very challenging and dangerous situation from the Soviet player point of view this early in the summer of 1942. There are two serious worries at the same time for the Soviet player - one that you continue an advance towards Stalingrad and south towards Grozny (with the threat of many more pockets being created) while at the same time you attempt to capture Moscow from the south - the Soviet player will be challenged defending both at the same time.

[CapAndGown]

July 16, 1941

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812
Well done, with the Soviet Army losing over 30 divisions and 400 Thousand troops in two turns.

Thank you. To be precise, that is 38 rifle divisions, 6 tank brigades and over 600,000 men in two turns.

In my opinion, a very challenging and dangerous situation from the Soviet player point of view this early in the summer of 1942. There are two serious worries at the same time for the Soviet player - one that you continue an advance towards Stalingrad and south towards Grozny (with the threat of many more pockets being created) while at the same time you attempt to capture Moscow from the south - the Soviet player will be challenged defending both at the same time.

Speaking of pockets: The Germans encircled another 25 rifle divisions this turn. The thrust east of Tula was paused this turn (more or less) to give some of my panzer divisions a chance to restock. But 1st Pz Army which had taken up positions in the forests west of the Don (they were heading north while hiding from enemy recon) sprang into action to create a large pocket around Boguchar. They were aided by one Pz Corps from 2nd Pz Army. In the process, we overran a number of Soviet airbases destroying large numbers of their planes on the ground.

[CapAndGown]

Aug. 20, 1942

It has been a while since I have updated this AAR. For operational security reasons, I do not wish to go into current operations at this time, except to say that the German army is currently grinding it way through heavy Soviet defenses.

Instead of a discussion of operations, however, I thought I would bring us up to date on the casualty reports for our Summer offensive. After creating some more pockets on turn 58, 59 and 60 we have not created any more in the last two turns, a fact that my opponent has remarked on with some relief. The pockets we did create since the Stalino pocket, however have netted a total of 69 infantry divisions destroyed and 1.3 million men lost. The lack of pockets in the last few turns has allowed the Soviets to bounce back somewhat, yet they are still down 300,000 men from where they were when that summer offensive began. Surprisingly, their airforce has not grown any, but their tank fleet continues to grow. (The combat engine is too kind to the Soviets when it comes to tank losses at this point in the war.)

[CapAndGown]

Aug. 27, 1942

Now that I have launched a new offensive I can talk more openly about the progress of this game. (I still can't say everything, however.)

The offensive in the Saransk/Arzamas region was bogging down because of the depth and strength of the Soviet defenders. My own concentration of forces was matched by a Soviet concentration in turn. To achieve such concentration other sectors of the front needed to be weakened, opening them up to a possible offensive. There were several possibilities for a secondary offensive.
1) Saratov. This area is lightly held and at one time had a number of factories that it would have been nice to destroy if our forces were able to reach the objective in time. Unfortunately, the distance to be covered meant it took too long for our infantry to reach this area in a reasonable amount of time, plus there was nowhere to hide the panzers from enemy recon on the open steppe.
2) Ryazan. Not the city itself, but the soviet defenses south of the Oka. This is just a 2 hex deep defense with an open space between it and the Oka. The Oka itself seems as though it is not defended in this area. Yet I question the reliability of our recon since units in forested regions can prove to be exceptionally difficult to detect. Plus, there was the difficulty of trying to hide the panzers.
3) Kaluga/Rzhev. Recon showed soviet forces between these two cities to be rather thin. Of course, I could not be sure about what was hiding in the woods, but it seemed as though there was nothing really behind the front line except some tank brigades serving as reserve forces. What made this area especially attractive was the ability to hide a build up here in the forests. Plus there is a nice open corridor from Rzhev up to Kalinin/Torzhok.

In the end I decided I would attempt an encirclement of the forces between Vyazma and Rzhev. As it turned out, I was not strong enough to achieve an encirclement. Soviet units kept falling back into fortified hexes that did not show up in recon. I guess those forts didn't show up because they did not have any units in them. At any rate, instead of being able to easily overrun the defenders once they were forced out of their front line fortifications, they proved to be rather stubborn obstacles to overcome. In the end, it does not appear we will be able to achieve an encirclement here. But the Soviets now have a second major thrust to deal with, not just the one around Saransk/Arzamas.

[CapAndGown]

Sept. 3, 1942

Somewhat surprisingly, I was able to form the Vyazma/Rzhev pocket after all. It is only 8 rifle divisions and two tank brigades. Still, losing 8 divisions is going to sting. Plus, three more rifle divisions were isolated to the east south of Murom. In total, the Soviets will lose 11 rifle divisions and 2 tank brigades next turn. (Since I have already done turn 65, I can say this with certainty.) Indeed, on turn 65 the Soviets will suffer the loss of over 160k men.

Meanwhile, in the east our offensive looks like it has failed. Although a number of Soviet units were sent west to bolster the defenses in front of Moscow, a huge number of forces still face our spearhead south of Arzamas. The prospects of any further advances in this area look poor. As a result, I am pulling back the panzers to rest and refit while we decide on a new course of action. I am still not ready to reveal what the goal of this offensive was, however.

[CapAndGown]

Although the game progresses (We are at turn 95 now) I am reluctant to report on my current situation except to say that we are now on the strategic defensive. Beyond that, I do not want to go into my defense philosophy because it might reveal too much.

Rather than talking about my current situation, I did want to clarify what the objective of my summer offensive was. I was aiming for Gorki and its vehicle factories. I did not need to actually capture the city, just as long as the factories were evacuated this would have disrupted Soviet production. My thought was that vehicles are the Soviets Achilles heel. Without them supply becomes more difficult and movement points become restricted, slowing down any Soviet advance.