I appreciate DW much more now.

[Baleur]

lol my god, after trying Star Ruler i truly appreciate Distant Worlds far more now.
I'll admit i didnt like this game at all at release, but at least it was a game, it had options, it was massive, it merely had bugs.
But that game, wow. Nothing, its like a demo, a tech demo with nothing more than a galaxy size slider. No empires no races no planet variation, nothing.

Well I didnt start this thread to rant about another game, just to say how good it felt to boot up DW again after that, and realizing what an amazing game it is. [&o]
Keep up the good work, you didnt deserve the rants i gave at release.

[Bartje]

Hehehe, Nice of you to post that for us

As for your rants, There is nothing wrong with admitting a game doesn't live up to your expectations.
I personally expect DW to become even better with it's expansion as well as StarRuler to massively improve as it gets patched.

I think developers should be held to high standards, how else will they produce things of quality like DW?
The DW devs have certainly lived up to this standard by providing constant support, I expect no different from other indie companies.

[tornnight]

Yes I purchased Star Ruler and I echo that it is still very basic.

[adecoy95]

ORIGINAL: Baleur

lol my god, after trying Star Ruler i truly appreciate Distant Worlds far more now.
I'll admit i didnt like this game at all at release, but at least it was a game, it had options, it was massive, it merely had bugs.
But that game, wow. Nothing, its like a demo, a tech demo with nothing more than a galaxy size slider. No empires no races no planet variation, nothing.

Well I didnt start this thread to rant about another game, just to say how good it felt to boot up DW again after that, and realizing what an amazing game it is. [&o]
Keep up the good work, you didnt deserve the rants i gave at release.

yea, i could tell star ruler was sucky from watching the live streams, it was crashing even for them... battle of the triangles lol

they are using the oldest excuse in the book too, "we will implement _____ after release...." yea ok, i can understand things like modding support, but when they say things like... refueling from planets not in yet, currently cannot click directly on stars, and races not selectable (!!!)... yea, unfinished game is unfinished.

plus you cannot play multiplayer right now if your friend bought from a different provider, apparently all 3 of the digital distributors got different versions of the game

[Baleur]

Indeed. And there will always be people who whine like 14 year olds about how you should "give the game a chance, its just released".
But the fact still remains, we arent obligated to give anything that costs money a "chance". If it was free, sure.

But when a product that you pay for fails to deliver on your most basic expectations, you have every right to be harsh on it. [:'(]
If we stop to expect quality, then things will never progress. Its a good thing that the standards have been raised so high these days, and frankly if something can't keep up, its not the customers fault.

[adecoy95]

ORIGINAL: Baleur

Indeed. And there will always be people who whine like 14 year olds about how you should "give the game a chance, its just released".
But the fact still remains, we arent obligated to give anything that costs money a "chance". If it was free, sure.

But when a product that you pay for fails to deliver on your most basic expectations, you have every right to be harsh on it. [:'(]
If we stop to expect quality, then things will never progress. Its a good thing that the standards have been raised so high these days, and frankly if something can't keep up, its not the customers fault.

exactly, besides, fixing a game after release is a self fulfilling prophecy, you release a buggy game, pissed off customers tell their friends to stay away, game does not sell well, no patches are released because it dident sell well.

i personally barely ever buy a game on the expectation of mystical future patches, i buy what i see (or play in the instance of a demo)

at least for those of you that spent your money on hopes only had to throw down $20

[2guncohen]

ORIGINAL: Baleur

lol my god, after trying Star Ruler i truly appreciate Distant Worlds far more now.
I'll admit i didnt like this game at all at release, but at least it was a game, it had options, it was massive, it merely had bugs.
But that game, wow. Nothing, its like a demo, a tech demo with nothing more than a galaxy size slider. No empires no races no planet variation, nothing.

Well I didnt start this thread to rant about another game, just to say how good it felt to boot up DW again after that, and realizing what an amazing game it is. [&o]
Keep up the good work, you didnt deserve the rants i gave at release.

And dont forget you have some nice mods to spice upp the game [;)]

[Bartje]

It is true that when you buy a product you are entitled to have expectations of its performance. These are even legally binding to the producer in a certain sense. (Developers are obligated to patch software by EU law for example because their product isn't what they promised the customer before he bought it)

In this instance however the developers of StarRuler gave ample indication that the game would be released in an unfinished state. They also indicated that they would continually support the game. (A legally binding commitment because customers may buy their product because of this pledge, that it would one day be finished and properly working with the features promised)


I consider it an investment, much like I consider DW an investment when it was first released. (and it has since come a very far way! [X(])

I can't wait for the DW expansion BTW! When are Erik or Elliot going to tell us what's in it?!

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Bartje
I consider it an investment...

Likewise to some extent, and at least the price was reasonable. However, I must admit I wasn't expecting what, in all honesty, seems barely more than an alpha build and I fear SR will be so hammered by reviews (which, quite rightly, deal with what's there, not what might be there in future) it won't sell enough copies to support that further development.

I think I'll just put this one aside for a few months and see what happens.

[Igard]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I think I'll just put this one aside for a few months and see what happens.

I'm going to wait and see for a few months before I consider buying. It's not so much the money (it is a very cheap price), it's the time I would have to invest in the game.

[JosEPhII]

I'll be the contraryist here.

I'm not currently playing DW. The End game is my problem with it currently.

I am playing SR. It carries the same potential as DW has. If the Blind Mind supports it like Elliotg and Erik have DW it will have it's place in the 4X RTS game genre.

These 2 game have different approaches. DW IMHO is more of a RTS souped up SEV. While SR is in the SoTS/Homeworld style.

I've supported both by purchasing their respective products. I do dislike naysayers who squawk over a product after 1 days introduction. That's how you destroy a Genre. Can anyone say MoO3? (And it IS a good game even today).

Ppl gripe about spending $20 on a product like SR but wouldn't hesitate to drop $20 on a Movie at the threatre with the wife/girlfriend and the movie wasn't so hot after all! It's all a matter of perspective.

JosEPh

[drillerman]

I was a beta tester for Star ruler and gave some, albeit a small amount of input to the game back in May/June. The thing I was most disappointed with was that some of the most basic bugs and features suggested that was taken on board at the time were not implemented.
Three examples:
1. A random seeding button to generate more seed numbers.
2. When a ship is built it should orbit the planet it was built around, not drift off into space.
3. Disappearing ships when zoomed in too close.

I still have an old beta copy and the release copy and while I am sure things under the hood have been addressed, my initial reaction was that there did not seem much difference between then and now on the most basic level.

[Simulation01]

The facts are that PC gaming is dying.  The large developers are going the way of the Dinosaurs.  We will no longer be able to demand video and depth.  We will be forced to choose between video and depth, but will rarely get both.  This is occurring because of the improving quality of consoles, high PC prices, pirating and rights destroying DRM.  There are some developers that I can't stand and who deserve to be pirated...like EA ( Will Wright and that pile of fecal matter known as Spore, though why anyone would want to pirate Spore is beyond me ).

I chose to buy Distant Worlds because of the concepts introduced and I will buy Star Ruler tomorrow for the same reasons.  I want to support talented people and fan loving developers when I see them obviously trying to provide a quality product to a niche market. 

Also, from what I've read on the forums, and this came from the developers, Star Ruler is already making enough money to sustain development:

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/37 ... 5/#2721022

 

[JosEPhII]

ORIGINAL: drillerman

I was a beta tester for Star ruler and gave some, albeit a small amount of input to the game back in May/June. The thing I was most disappointed with was that some of the most basic bugs and features suggested that was taken on board at the time were not implemented.
Three examples:
1. A random seeding button to generate more seed numbers.
2. When a ship is built it should orbit the planet it was built around, not drift off into space.
3. Disappearing ships when zoomed in too close.

I still have an old beta copy and the release copy and while I am sure things under the hood have been addressed, my initial reaction was that there did not seem much difference between then and now on the most basic level.

Don't know nuthin' about seeding #1.

But for #2 my ships haven't floated off. They stay close to the planet that built them.

As for #3 zooming it can stand some more refining.

Apparently someone has already put out a Pirated version. [:-][:-][:@]

JosEPh

[Baleur]

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II

Apparently someone has already put out a Pirated version. [:-][:-][:@]

JosEPh

If it can save someone their money for a product not worth it.. [:o]

And the thing about the game being a work in progress, well, the point is.. The game is published and launched as a full game, like any other, like Distant Worlds, like Galciv2, like Bad Company 2. When any customer goes to buy the game, either in a store or online, its displayed just as any other game.
The ONLY way to realize that it isnt even supposed to be a full complete game, is if you google your way to their obscure dusty forums and read a bunch of month old topics....

That is NOT a binding pledge or justification for releasing an alpha-state game. Period.
If they named the game, straight on the box, Star Ruler Alpha-01, then it'd be a fair deal with the customers knowing fully well what they pay for.
But then they'd also get next to no sales, as opposed to the sales they get / will get on impulse, d2d, etc by people like me who foolishly assumed it was an actual Game.

What would happen if a new car was advertised and sold to people on the waiting list, with the slight unspoken detail that the actual engine, transmission and interior would be "finished later on", to be discovered upon delivery of said car?
Hey, if anti-piracy ads can compare downloading a game to stealing a car, i can compare selling an unfinished car to selling an unfinished game, without advertising it as such. [;)]

[Warspite3]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

The facts are that PC gaming is dying.  The large developers are going the way of the Dinosaurs.  We will no longer be able to demand video and depth.  We will be forced to choose between video and depth, but will rarely get both.  This is occurring because of the improving quality of consoles, high PC prices, pirating and rights destroying DRM.  There are some developers that I can't stand and who deserve to be pirated...like EA ( Will Wright and that pile of fecal matter known as Spore, though why anyone would want to pirate Spore is beyond me ).

I chose to buy Distant Worlds because of the concepts introduced and I will buy Star Ruler tomorrow for the same reasons.  I want to support talented people and fan loving developers when I see them obviously trying to provide a quality product to a niche market. 

Also, from what I've read on the forums, and this came from the developers, Star Ruler is already making enough money to sustain development:

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/37 ... 5/#2721022

Facts? Where are you getting facts that PC gaming is dying? Many lead people in the gaming industry (including Sid Meier) already confirmed this is in fact NOT the case. I don't know why some people still continue to state this and its simple not true. I mean seriously, Starcraft II was just released, Civ5 is around the corner, shipsim xtremes is due out in 5 days, digital distribution sales are sky rocketing! What IS dying is... the days of going to a store and buying a PC game. This is not a bad thing, I love the digital now for many reasons. No more worrying about a box with no room to put it, no more worrying about hunting for a CD that eventually ends up scratched. It feels good to be able to pick my game and play it without having the CD in the drive. If I restore my computer, I loadup steam or any of the other sites, all my games are right there to download. Then on top of this, no more hunting the net for the latest patches. You download the game and its up to date. I am all for digital distribution now. So this is the direction PC gaming is heading. PC games are becoming scarse in stores because it is more efficient to download them online now and most people are doing this. Another thing, so many times in the past I remember calling all the Gamestops in my area only to find out they are out of stock on a game I wanted. Then having to drive an hour or more away just to get it.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II

I'll be the contraryist here.

I'm not currently playing DW. The End game is my problem with it currently.

I am playing SR. It carries the same potential as DW has. If the Blind Mind supports it like Elliotg and Erik have DW it will have it's place in the 4X RTS game genre.

These 2 game have different approaches. DW IMHO is more of a RTS souped up SEV. While SR is in the SoTS/Homeworld style.

I've supported both by purchasing their respective products. I do dislike naysayers who squawk over a product after 1 days introduction. That's how you destroy a Genre. Can anyone say MoO3? (And it IS a good game even today).

Ppl gripe about spending $20 on a product like SR but wouldn't hesitate to drop $20 on a Movie at the threatre with the wife/girlfriend and the movie wasn't so hot after all! It's all a matter of perspective.

JosEPh

Actually, yes, once the modding community got ahold of MoO3 and fixed the few things that did need fixing in a bad way, the game is actually quite satisfying. The thing is, the developer/producer should have fixed those issues, instead of the community having to to it.

Distant Worlds did get off to a slightly rocky start...however, Erik and Elliotg have done an outstanding job of getting the patches out in a more than timely fashion to fix the bugs. On top of that, Elliotg has gone the extra mile of tweaking the game based on suggestions from the players and added content we have asked for. As far as customer service goes, DW is 5 star quality IMO.

Oh and just FYI, I haven't been to a movie at a theatre in about 15 years now, I refuse to drop $20 for the utter crap Hollywood produces these days. $20 is far better spent on a good steak dinner...at least it is satisfying. [;)]

[Warspite3]

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II

I'll be the contraryist here.

I'm not currently playing DW. The End game is my problem with it currently.

I am playing SR. It carries the same potential as DW has. If the Blind Mind supports it like Elliotg and Erik have DW it will have it's place in the 4X RTS game genre.

These 2 game have different approaches. DW IMHO is more of a RTS souped up SEV. While SR is in the SoTS/Homeworld style.

I've supported both by purchasing their respective products. I do dislike naysayers who squawk over a product after 1 days introduction. That's how you destroy a Genre. Can anyone say MoO3? (And it IS a good game even today).

Ppl gripe about spending $20 on a product like SR but wouldn't hesitate to drop $20 on a Movie at the threatre with the wife/girlfriend and the movie wasn't so hot after all! It's all a matter of perspective.

JosEPh

I agree here. Although I have not purchased SR yet, still only a $20 price tag on impulse until tomorrow seems like a good deal. My friend bought it yesterday and he loves it. I've been on that forum over at BM (and also penny arcade) and those developers seem very dedicated to that game. Not to mention the fans are posting some positive remarks. Not sure how it will compare to DW but seems different enough for me to buy it, maybe before the night ends I will take advantage of the impulse pre-order. I have not played DW in a while. may play for a little bit now. As I said way back during the release of DW, many times I still prefer Armada to a lot of these games, especially since the latest patch. This said, I usually buy all the 4x space games that come out. So far that has been the best thing since I actually play all of them. I find little things here and there that I like about them all overall. Heck I still find the depth of SE5 interesting, I still like the flow of DW, I still love Armada, I still find Sins pretty and exciting as heck, I still like the naval feel to SotS, I still find GalCiv2 the overall best space strategy.... and it goes on as time does [;)]

[feygan]

To say that piracy can hurt indy games couldn't be more wrong, most indy games are run on shoestring budgets and so don't have demos or months of upcoming videos and screenshots, nor weeks of pre release previews as they simply cannot afford them. This leaves potential customers with only one option, buy the game and risk wasting money on a bad product, or pirate the game then see what they think.

Since to start with anyone that pirates anything be it film, music or software because they just don't like paying is never going to buy a product anyway so you cannot include such a person in lost sales numbers they will either get your product for free or they just will live without your product either way its not dollars in the producers pocket. Also you only need to look at IGN or gamespot and see a trove of totally appalling game releases full of bugs or shoddy gameplay and all of these will be major titles produced by large "blockbusting" companies, spore being a great example from one of the top 5 in the industry.

When as a consumer you can't even trust a highly experienced multi staffed billion dollar firm to get a game right after 2-3 years of development it becomes hard to see how a one man show can do the same in half the time for a tenth of the budget. This is where piracy for the good of a product comes in, I freely admit that up until 1.04 of DW I was using a pirated product, and did so without any feelings of guilt. Had I bought the game at the beginning and had it turned out that the devs had not patched the game to correct levels and ignored the plees of their customers "the same way folk like EA will do every time" I as a digital customer would have been left screwed. I could not have returned the product and would have had no refund just wasted hard drive space. For me personally the pirated pre 1.04 period was my demo, I played and modded the game and got to know if this was worth spending my money on, once I saw the latest patch I knew it was going to be the kind of thing I like and want more of, the only way to get more is to support the folk who do that hense why I purchased the game.

AS someone above said that pc games are dying, this is abit incorrect. It's not pc games that are dying just the good innovative games that are dying, instead it's just constant console type games for the pc. If more folk felt less guilty about the piracy before you buy issue then less folk would endup out of pocket for the latest FPS that tend to be rehashes of very similar products with different labels, folk would also have their eyes opened to new and greatly designed games such as DW. If it wasn't for piracy I would have never found out nor got to play DW and matix games would be one customer less.

[the1sean]

Interesting discussion. PC gaming is not dead, it is definitely going the digital download route, which is GREAT for developers. Because Digital distribution requires less of a "middle man" cut on the earnings the dev gets the lion's share of the profit, and the consumer is convenienced. It's a win-win, and great for indy devs on a small budget with super low overhead.

That said, I cant stand devs that release completely unfinished games; I have much more tolerance for devs that work hard to patch and listen to player input. A shining example being codeforce and matrix.

And yeah Shark7, steak is good. Just watch the movie on netflix at home