PanzerKrieg Map Mod (DISCUSSION)

[bwheatley]

looks nice good work man. now just to talk you into helping me with some map work

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

OOBs need a full rebalance... first see non arty regiments in non german units is... [:-] (is a lot better leave arty in a regiment and reinforce infantry regiments with AT rifles, maybe 5 76mm and MGs like in DC1) ...

I am not sure what you mean by this.

Most (if not all) WW2 combatants had two, really three, sorts of Artillery ...

1) Divisional Artillery - mostly Howitzers and Gun Howitzers which were intended primarily for long range indirect fire (that is, map or spotted fire at targets the guns couldn't actually see). These are, I am presuming on the most cursory of glances, the tubes that are in the Divisional Artillery Regiments for the Germans (I haven't had a look at the Russians or Axis allies *at all*). They were under the Division Commander's control and used as he saw fit to support the Division's operations.

2) Infantry Guns - so called because they were part of the TO&E of the Infantry units (Battalions, Regiments, whatever). These were generally direct fire weapons with limited indirect fire ranges. They were intended to operate in direct support of the Infantry Regiment?Battalion they belonged to. Often (mostly) Guns rather than Howitzers. They were under the Regimental or Battalion Commander's control and used as they saw fit to support the Battalion/Regiment's operations.

3) Mortars - most were part of the TO&E of Infantry units (Battalions, Regiments) and used in support of Battalion/Regimental Ops by the Battalion/Regimental Commander. Some were deployed down at Company level and under the control of the Company commander. In a few cases, some lighter models may have been deployed at Squad level.

DCCB does, afaict, a reasonable job of modelling this three way split ... in other words, the artillery in the Infantry (or Armour or Mechanised or Motor) Brigades are from (2) and (3), not from (1), which is as it should be.

Isn't this the same in axis allied and Russian units? Is that what you are getting at? If so, then, yes, I agree, it really needs to be changed.

Phil

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

looks nice good work man. now just to talk you into helping me with some map work

What do you need?

[sitito]

Red, love ur WW2 Photo_Units Mod… u will add in the future the planes photos???

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: sitito

Red, love ur WW2 Photo_Units Mod… u will add in the future the planes photos???

Budd has added ships and planes for both sides Coming in the next release.

[Redmarkus5]

I have upped the Panzer Division OOB based on my best assessment of what the average should be for a fully stocked 1942 German PzDiv. Remember, all these values will be randomised and reduced by the game at the start.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this?

[sitito]

Budd has added ships and planes for both sides Coming in the next release.

Great!! looking foward!! [&o]

[Redmarkus5]

I've decided that Artillery Regts will be real artillery Regts, with only an 'Alarm KG' to defend them, in PanzerKrieg version 5.

Other Version 5 changes include, in summary:

1. Added Aufklarung, Pioniere and Fuslier battalions to each ID as a 4th Regt. I still need to work through all the units on the map and edit them/rename the Artillery Regt, so that might take a while.
2. Upped the panzer OOBs all around to better match the records I have found.
3. Persistent rocket units with lower stats.
4. Renamed SS units to give more historical format.
5. Incorporated the Ritterkreig unit graphics and added some NATO graphics of my own for Artillery and Engineer Regts.
6. Map corrections to a few remaining extra city hexes - all cities should now really only fill one 10x10km hex.
7. Extended the WW2 B&W photo units mod to include ships and planes by Budd.
8. Removed the 1st rate combat infantry from the artillery regts.

In the pipeline for version 5 or 6:

1. New Soviet Officers pics.
2. Maybe some new event code if B Wheatley can be persuaded to assist!
3. Updated Soviet OOB, perhaps and only if I can find stats and it's justified by play testing.
4. Edits to SS division OOBs.

[Hexagon]

I refer to add the infantry guns in infantry regiments for soviets, and leave 76mm hotwitzers (the non AT version) and 122mm for a dedicated arty regiment with 200 infantry+200 engeniers, for me a soviet infantry regiment needs at full power 2.000 infantry, 5-10 76mm infantry guns, 5 76mm AT guns, 5-10 45mm ATs (soviet divisions have a AT regiment with AT guns and could be divided in game between regiments) and maybe add AT rifles because in this part of the war AT rifles in soviet army have an important role.

Mortars... in DC1 i dont see them breaking nothing like MGs because they are 0 range weapons (81mm and 50mm mortars)... maybe my problem with DC2 is the lack of standar structure in regiments, some times in non german divisions is a little... well.

In armored brigades i miss the infantry battalion that all this units have. I think that motorized and armored units needs a more standar structure, at corps level motorized units have tanks but as independent brigades no.

For example take the 13th tank corps in Uranus.

PzC Stalingrad:

3 mech brigades (call it motorized brigade): made of


3 motorized battalions(487 men)
1 tank regiment(27 tanks mixed)
1 arty bn 12 guns 76mm
1 mortar bn 18x81mm/120mm
1 AA bn 12x37mm


1 tank brigade:

2 tank regiments, 1 of T-34/76 with 21 vehicles and a light regiment with 11 T-70
1 motorized battalion with 403 men.

And the corps has a small sapper unit of 274 men.

Total 4.786 soldiers, 113 tanks, 36 guns, 54 mortars and 36 AA guns.

DC:

3 units but with no mortars and with heavy arty...

1.700 soldiers 25xT-34/76, 15xT-70, 10x76mm guns, 10x122mm, 5x45mm AT and 250-300 trucks in 2 of the units, third miss 300 soldiers and the 5 122mm guns.

Total: 4.800 soldiers, 120 tanks, 50 guns, 15 ATs

Numbers are not a lot diferent except in guns... i think that in game need in this units light arty (76mm and mortars) and maybe add AA protection.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

looks nice good work man. now just to talk you into helping me with some map work

What do you need?

Horrible map work i'm working on trying to get my map of europe in ATG done. But once it's done it could be imported into DC2 though. :>

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I've decided that Artillery Regts will be real artillery Regts, with only an 'Alarm KG' to defend them, in PanzerKrieg version 5.

Other Version 5 changes include, in summary:

1. Added Aufklarung, Pioniere and Fuslier battalions to each ID as a 4th Regt. I still need to work through all the units on the map and edit them/rename the Artillery Regt, so that might take a while.
2. Upped the panzer OOBs all around to better match the records I have found.
3. Persistent rocket units with lower stats.
4. Renamed SS units to give more historical format.
5. Incorporated the Ritterkreig unit graphics and added some NATO graphics of my own for Artillery and Engineer Regts.
6. Map corrections to a few remaining extra city hexes - all cities should now really only fill one 10x10km hex.
7. Extended the WW2 B&W photo units mod to include ships and planes by Budd.
8. Removed the 1st rate combat infantry from the artillery regts.

In the pipeline for version 5 or 6:

1. New Soviet Officers pics.
2. Maybe some new event code if B Wheatley can be persuaded to assist!
3. Updated Soviet OOB, perhaps and only if I can find stats and it's justified by play testing.
4. Edits to SS division OOBs.

What event code did you need?

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

looks nice good work man. now just to talk you into helping me with some map work

What do you need?

Horrible map work i'm working on trying to get my map of europe in ATG done. But once it's done it could be imported into DC2 though. :>

Send me the map in DC2 format and I'll take a look at it. I will PM re the event stuff.

[Redmarkus5]

OK, so we end up with this for the Soviet Rifle Regts - before randomisation.

This should off-set a lot of the Axis OOB changes.

[Redmarkus5]

Created a new 'OCS_Fields' graphic by stealing the images from WtP which I am adding to the map. It will be much more heavily used in the west, getting less and less common as you go east.

The same movement and combat effects as the original 'Plains', but it breaks up the monotony a little.

Also coming in PzKrg Version 5.0

[Redmarkus5]

Darker 'move-to' hexes that now show up properly on the OCS map and lighter FoW hexes. Also removed the FoW hex sides...

[Sator]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

1. Added Aufklarung, Pioniere and Fuslier battalions to each ID as a 4th Regt. I still need to work through all the units on the map and edit them/rename the Artillery Regt, so that might take a while.

I am not sure if to have a fourth regiment on the map is really more historically correct. The primary units organic to divisional headquarters where the reconnaissance, engineer, anti-tank and signal battalions, but these units had very different tasks and it’s hard to expect them to move and fight together as a single force.

It’s correct to add engineers and recon units (aren’t fusiliers just a late version of recons?) to divisions’ OOB but I think it could be more historically reasonable to embed them in the existing regiments. In this way one of the regiment will have a better engineering capacity (figuring he’s fighting with the support of the engineer battalion) and another best reconnaissance capacity. Not a perfect solution but in my opinion better than to see all these ghost regiments in the map.

Thank you for your wonderful work, Markus!

[aspqrz02]

Or spread them across the existing (Line) Regiments, which is what I have assumed for my recommended Romanian Army TO&E changes for DCCB, elsewhere.

Ideally, of course, a game such as this would operate on a Regimental and Battalion scale, with the Regiments as the main units, but with supplementary Battalions ... but, for DCCB, I think things seem to work reasonably well as is (i.e. keep with Regiments).

Phil

[Hexagon]

The smaller scale that starts to cover well the OOB is battalion level but game was made for regiment scale (casualties 100 by 100 and 5 by 5) for me the only problem is the miss of arty regiments in non german units that split divisional arty between regiments (this add the problem of see an arty regiment attacking infantry regiment and suffering casualties by counterbattery from the attacked unit[:@]).

Maybe is to early to talk about DC3 but VIC can maybe explore a battalion scale covering a smaller campaign (in number of troops) like North Africa or japanese blitzkrieg in the Pacific (Burma, Philipines...) with 10 by 10 and 1 by 1 casualties.

[aspqrz02]

I have done a OOB/TO&E for Romanian Infantry, Cavalry, Mountain and Armour units, as well as Corps units (elsewhere) that shows that they should have 3 Line and 1 Artillery for each, just as the Germans do, because the TO&Es given in DCCB simply leave out the bulk of their Artillery.

I haven't had a chance to do Hungary and Italy yet, but a cursory glance shows they are almost certainly also misconfigured and have missing Artillery etc.

Then on to German and Russian units, as I suspect they may have been overly simplified out of some elements they should have.

Phil

[Redmarkus5]

I will use any reliable TOEs anyone can post here. What's missing from the current German Inf Divs (based on standard Wehrmacht TOE for 1942) is:

1 x Field replacement Bn
1 x Pionier Bn
1x Pz jager Bn (but this is already spread across the Regts)
1 x Aufklarungs Recon Bn
1 x Fusilier Bn (for street fighting etc - not recon)

Div HQ staff, 1 x Signals Bn and Supply Bn are represented by 'Staff'.

Either the regts need to be beefed up a lot or an extra small regt is needed. I feel that adding a Regt (it's about half the size of the others) with recon, pioneers and fusliers gives the commander an option to commit these specialists or not, and where. Spreading them just equals more riflemen.