Axis allies useless?

[exalted]

I used to play quite a bit of War in the East but currently trying out War in the East 2 and I like it but...

What the hell has happened to the Italians, Romanians and even Hungarians they where always crap but I've had full romanian divisions barely able to shift <1cv russian divisions and usually with horrendous losses?

So what are you using the axis allies for just filling out the soviet garisson?

Building up forts behind the line?

Or is there a way to make them moderatly useful?

My current idea is actually editing up their national moral by 5-10 points on my next run at the 1941 scenario (a setting for this would have been awesome), I really dislike having useless counters on the map at all.

[Jango32]

Slovak mobile brigade is useful.

Romanian infantry divisions are good for either taking Odessa outright or softening it up for a German assault, then sending the sacrificial lambs into the Soviet garrison TB.

Romanian and Hungarian mobile units (i.e. cavalry brigades) are useful to grab hexes because of their MPs.

Basically the Axis minor forces in WitE 2 are useful as either easy fodder for the Soviets to gain Guard status for their divisions, sacrificial lambs to take Odessa or filling up the garrison TB for the most part. You could theoretically make use of them as extra men when on the defensive, but you absolutely cannot leave them on their own without the Germans to babysit them.

[Stamb]

"Axis allies useless?" absolutely, when it comes to fighting...
There are few of Rumanian divisions like mountains and guard divisions that performs a little bit better cuz of 65-60 morale. Other allies, except of Finns and Slovak mobile, are a joke!

[Fraggo5]

I have found the Rumanians to be effective when used en masse with the right General, The Hungarians again really strong with the right General but not needing the same amount of divisions as the Rumanians.
I used the Italians to shore up holes in the lines mainly in the south but by the end game in my 178 turn slog to victory they have already disappeared.
Keep them supplied with su's and build up cpp coupled with the right leadership and see how they go then.

[DesertedFox]

Here are three unsourced (that I could see anyway) links that basically regurgitate the same

details that the books I have read about the Romanians in WW2.

https://stalingradfront.com/articles/articles-about-ww2/romanians/

https://www.rbth.com/history/332573-how-and-why-romanians-fought

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/romanian-tanks-ww2.php

[AlbertN]

There has been a discussion about usefullness / the National Morale for Axis Minors already - and the Devs answer was that their National Morale is appropriate.

I do not have a link at hand but yes - the solution if you play single player is to use the Editor.

I am one of the various player agreeing their NM is too low.

To answer the topic proper in general yes barring the few 'elite' ones that have a +15 to their NM, the Axis minors are pratically a potential waste of supplies. At best they can dig forts or maybe beef up German defenders.
In general if they get a defeat their units pratically disintegrate at once.

[Denniss]

The problem seems that units below 50 morale are losing usefulness far faster than they gain if they are above 50. So at 40 they lose more combat capability than they gain with 60.

[Stamb]

And Rumanians are 45 by default. One successful attack from a Soviet player sends them miles away. As it was mention before. Axis allies really need a buff. Except for Finnish troops.

[exalted]

Good then it's not just me.

I'm pretty sure that the supply I'm shipping to them in my current campaign actually made it more difficult during winter 41 rather than having any real positive effects.

I'm curious about what the right generals would be Fraggo? I've tried german command which makes it slightly better but they still collapse more or less directly even if they can have a temporary decent CV it seems very much an illusion that doesn't exist if they actually attack or are attacked. Mostly it seems to be about taking disproportional casualties sometimes several times the soviet losses even when they win.

[Stamb]

Even Model, best leader in the game, will not help much. Yes it is better to have German leader than Rumanian one, but each division take 3 capacity points instead of 2, if assigned to a corps with a leader that is from other country than division itself. So German corps can command 3 non German divisions maximum (3*3=9 points) without a penalties.

[Great_Ajax]

What would be nice if there was some granularity in national morale to set for the units beyond just elite, non-elite and motorized. Then you could incorporate more variations in troop quality.

Elite - NM +10

Veteran - NM +5

Professional Fully trained unit - NM +0

Professional untrained unit - NM -5

Conscript untrained - NM -10

Militia/Extreme Poor Morale - NM - 15

[AlbertN]

I thought of something like that - given I was coveting the idea of a German promotion system of X units per month that can 'veteran' up with a NM bump.
I've seen something like that is done in some scenarios or late campaigns.

+15 Elite looks good - heck by the combat performances it does not even cut it for all I can see in my AAR. The German Elite divisions do not really seem ... elite at all. But that may be due to other reasons.

The maluses on the other hand tend to not work well I feel. For in general a unit with a neat penalty compared to the national morale ends up ... well Luftwaffe Feld divisions for instance, how regularly they're used in a '41 Campaign? Would a player ever refit them? On need they're the first manpower that gets disbanded because it turns into 'generic' manpower.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: exalted

Good then it's not just me.

I'm pretty sure that the supply I'm shipping to them in my current campaign actually made it more difficult during winter 41 rather than having any real positive effects.

....

they can be used very effectively but need careful management. All the mot formations are perfectly ok.

In 1941 the Rumanians have 3 usages, they can shield the western edge of a pocket - frees up a lot, they can attack or defend when stacked with German units or flip hexes. Some players use them for an assault on Odessa just to strip down Soviet resources. They refit readily and you can get their morale up with carefully curated wins. Come 1943 I use them as a screen, in the way a Soviet player uses weak stuff in 1941 - they have to be beaten, they deny admin movement and consume CPP - even better they remain easy to refit.

By 1943 and later the Hungarians can stand on their own defensively and the tank divisions are incredibly useful for cutting things off

Italians sit somewhere between the two

[Stamb]

Here is how it looks to fight with Rumanians.

Enemy moved 2 cavalry divisions through ferry hex and my ZOC. I imagine he used all of his MP.
My divisions were resting and had 100 CPP and 70%+ supplies/ammo.
52k vs 8k.
No SU from Soviet side.

Even with such an advantage they suffered more disruption. How it is possible? I have no idea. (yep it is blizzard but same goes for a summer and all other seasons, they are useless 24/7, every year).

[Stamb]

They already lost 10% of their TOE. Each division. Imagine what would happen with them if they are under attack? Half way to Romania already.

[Stamb]

And compare it with normal German infantry division (75 NM, nothing special)

[Sammy5IsAlive]

They suffered more disruptions because they had more than 6 times as many men involved in the battle.

If you look at it this way - 9.4% of the Rumanian men involved ended the battle disrupted. In contrast to 45.2%.

The difference is even more stark if you take destroyed men into account - that gives you 9.5% compared to 62.7%.

[Edit] In your German ID example note that the division started the battle with 528 elements (roughly 4700 men) already disrupted whereas the Rumanian divisions didn't start with any disrupted elements.

[Stamb]

50% of that destroyed men are due to a route/retreat.
during a battle itself numbers are: 571 dead Rumanians for 899 Soviet. And this is with 6x more men!

[Stamb]

And it was not a simple Rum. divisions. They were 5:0, another one 4:1, another one 1:0 wins/defeats statuses. It means they are > 45 base morale.
Actually average is 47 as shown on a screen.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

50% of that destroyed men are due to a route/retreat.
during a battle itself numbers are: 571 dead Rumanians for 899 Soviet. And this is with 6x more men!

So then compare that with your example involving the German ID. Your Rumanian attackers destroyed men at a rate of 0.25 men destroyed/ready element. Contrast that with the Soviet attackers in the second example where each ready element only destroyed 0.04 men on average. Your Rumanians were roughly 6 times more effective than the Soviets were on the attack!