A Moderator asks you to stop and think...

[RedLancer]

I've just seen that once again loki100 has decided to leave the forum and I'm not happy.

...what is it with this forum and some of the people who choose to post with attitude? Whilst within the forum rules, some of the behaviours shown here (and on the WitE forum) are beyond the pale. If I felt I had a justification as a moderator to request a ban then I would. I don't: but I can state my views. I been considering this post for quite sometime and it may mean the end of my mod status. Here goes...

Let me be quite clear on my take on some of the facts as I see them and I've modded three GG forums.

1. No-one has created a game with a deliberate bias to either side. Those who defend the status quo are not closet nazis or bolsheviks.
2. No-one puts the effort into creating a game of this magnitude without trying to do the very best they can. Help us make things better with saves don't trash talk and grandstand.
3. Without volunteers this game would not exist - a very few of us who help get something but unless you factor in our goodwill it is no compensation for our time. Most who help get nothing. Goodwill creates these games not money and some posters seem hell bent on destroying that goodwill to meet their own agendas.
4. Zovs recent poll shows that the vast majority only play against the AI. If beating a computer means so much that you need to make objectionable posts then ask yourself why. Just reload a save as the AI doesn't care.
5. I sort of get it for those who play H2H as the game takes time, effort and humans are competitive. It is however only a game and points 1 & 2 apply. If you get a turn back and you feel uncomfortable then just be thankful the loss isn't real.
6. I see a lot of data fixated posts. As a coded computer game data is fundamental. Data analysis can and does reveal bugs and in a game of this complexity there are bugs. We do all we can to fix them but with your help and not your angst.
7. Finally from someone who has experienced the reality of military operations then I can say that if you want a perfect data predictable sandbox to represent history and allow you to emulate the commanders of history then you'll be severely disappointed. Go read Clausewitz and von Moltke - the best commanders ride uncertainty and don't game it.

All I ask is that before you post in future then think as to what you want to achieve. If you are frustrated then attacking people simply doesn't help. Debate strategies and help us find bugs, but be kind.

[Stamb]

i understand what you are saying, but you just do not know all details

loki quoted only last line of my answer to his PM

i do not want to show PMs as they are personal messages in the end, not public, but if you have access - you can read them

there are other things to add but i do not see a reason of doing so as it will make another flame topic

cheers

[Veterin]

I do think we all need to remember why we play this game in the first place - to have fun. A forum is healthy if there is discussion going on across various mechanics of the game. Loki is one of the most helpful contributors on these forums (especially to newer players + live manual) so I do hope he comes back and gets enjoyment from the game/forums again.

It’s perfectly fine to raise any points where you think balance is an issue but as Joel said in his post, there’s not quick fixes to everything and collecting data takes time. When points are raised, it’s a good thing it’s discussed and we don’t need to cover old ground again over and over. It’s ok to disagree.

If the meta Is soviets winning more (and that may by true - who knows), then giving axis bonuses above 100 morale/logistics at the start of the game will become the norm until a new equilibrium is found (and that’s fine!).

I find this game truely amazing in its depth and I hope the game (and community) continues to grow over time.

[DarkHorse2]

I don't know about the rest, but I have only played the AI as I haven't felt the game (especially the Air War) is complete enough yet to play via opponent.

I have known others that stopped playing opponents entirely due to this being the case with them as well.

I am looking forward to when this is no longer true.

I know you guys are working on it, which I do appreciate.

[Wild]

Yes. We all have to remember that this is a game. The best East front game ever made in my opinion!

I think people need to ease up a bit. The devs are doing the best they can.

I find Loki to be excellent with answering questions not to mention he wrote a fantastic manual. I do hope he comes back.

[loki100]

I'm going to make one comment here and that is that.

There is a general point, I am just fed up of being the target of people like Hanny (in his various forms) and a few others, I am now described by a group of people as the 'problem that stops game development'. I've got so I dreaded logging on and seeing red notifications - actually feeling stressed by what I was going to find. That one of you thinks this post is even vaguely near acceptable is beyond my comprehension;



but actually its worse - and this makes me feel ill.

for some reason 'Kenny' thinks its fun to use my face as his avatar - its taken either from my twitter or linkedin accounts. Now you can actually get to them very indirectly if you follow the links I provide on my details page. But it involves 3 or more steps. I could even tell you the titles of the books in the lower right hand corner.

I regularly use my real name answering posts, my forum name is taken from the name I gave a now long dead, still missed, tom cat I had who I named afted the norse god of mischief. Its a nice (to me) way to remind me of someone I very much appreciated having had in life.

This has gone beyond abuse - its nearer to harassment. It feels like a form of stalking.

I wish nothing but the best to the 99+% of the active and passive users of this forum. I know the game will improve but it won't/can't involve me as I simply can't face engaging with whatever lurks in my notifications or having to read the next passive-aggressive thread about the evil WAD-ers (who of course are never defined) or whatever. Somehow I don't think those who have lost any sense of proportion will find it again, so I simply can't cope with being their target of choice.

Roger

edit - well I made the mistake of looking at my PMs and found this:

Like what you see, homoboy?

I've deleted the full link to the image, but its now reached the stage where someone is sending me pornographic images using the forum software

[Fullervc]

This game is excellent.

Yes, there are things I wish could be improved. Like getting support units where i want them, more historical AI play, etc.

Bottom line, I've been gaming since 1977 (old fart), but lets get real. They are improving the game play with every patch. Maybe I'm too casual as I don't micromanage to the level of plane load outs, etc. But it is playable, engrossing and I wish there were more campaigns and alternate history scenarios.

I am completely satisfied with the game (except the lack of alternate history scenarios and campaigns).

OK, rip me up. I'm a USMA grad and a veteran of the cold war in Germany. I can take it...

Eaglehorse forever!

[Fullervc]

BTW - If you don't understand how difficult it is to get a bunch of gun tubes pointed in the same direction at the same time, hold your fire.

[Denniss]

If somone goes onto this personal attack route he/she should be given 1 month or so to think about or even a complete account ban.
This is a NoGo.
If that happens to anyone either in a post or PM report them to a moderator/forum staff.

[aMaschina]

This harassment is unbearable and unacceptable! I dont know how I'd feel it someone looks up my face in the internet and uses it as an avatar!

Loki you have helped me and a lot of fellow newbies across some chokepoints in the learning curve indeed. I am always reading your comments with interest and satisfaction because they are detailed and well explained. Same goes for your AAR's. They want me to start up the game every time although I am short of time. You are a great asset to this forum and I am sure I am not the only one who thinks this way. Honored to have you!

[EddyBear81]

Support to loki. Anyway this goes, no one should endure the kind of insults he receives in the message he has shown above. This is WAY past the line in my opinion.

[jasonbroomer]

This is just ghastly, I am really sorry Loki that you have had to endure this.

I've heard of this across other sites on the web and I think it demonstrates that there are a small number of thoughtless clowns out there who presumably do it for their own kicks but have no idea of the impact that they can have. Perhaps they might reflect upon their posts and consider how independent parties might view them. It's all very sad and a great pity.

Blocking their accounts will unlikely have any impact if they can just set up new ones. Perhaps users should be required to validate themselves (via activity on Facebook, Linkedin etc?) before being given posting rights. Some genuine people might be put off by this unless the moderators explain that trolls have been active and this step is designed to block them.

[Edmon]

This post was just reported to me this morning (The Killmaster one)

He has gotten a 1 month ban for that completely unacceptable outburst.

If someone is behaving in this way, please use the report system.

I will come and deal with it.

Our forums are supposed to be friendly and for everyone. I won't tolerate people belittling others like this.

Regards,
Edmon


Note: Banned users cannot use the PM system either. If you get abuse via PM, report that too.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

This post was just reported to me this morning (The Killmaster one)

He has gotten a 1 month ban for that completely unacceptable outburst.

If someone is behaving in this way, please use the report system.

I will come and deal with it.

Our forums are supposed to be friendly and for everyone. I won't tolerate people belittling others like this.

Regards,
Edmon


Note: Banned users cannot use the PM system either. If you get abuse via PM, report that too.

So a user
1) harasses another user by using a photo of them as their avatar
2) sends pornographic images over the PM system
3) uses anti-semitic and anti-disability slurs.

And only gets a 1 month ban?

It is very rare that I would comment on moderation actions but for me it is difficult to think of a more clear-cut example of behavior that warrants a permanent ban. I don't feel I can share a community with that user and if he returned I don't think I could continue to participate here. I'm not so self-centred to believe that that would be any great loss to the community but I would suggest that for games of this nature to thrive and succeed (and make money) there needs to be a healthy community supporting it. If you have posters like Roger (and for what it is worth myself) leaving and posters like Killmaster returning it seems to me that your community will quickly turn toxic.

One final point - given the subject matter of this game and many of the other games Matrix publish surely any hate speech, and in particular anti-semitic hate speech, should be totally unacceptable and deleted (along with the offending user). Having the slur Killmaster used remain on the board is really not a good look.

Roger I hope at some point in the future you feel able to return - your contributions (and humour) will be very much missed. I'm really glad that you seem to be continuing with your AAR. I hope that by stepping back in this way you are able to feel a bit better in yourself.

[Zebtucker12]

Do not know why antisemitism is worse than racism mr sammy but i agree that 1 month is a bit lenient.

He was also being homofobic and matrix have recently signed a inclusivity for lgbtq+ pledge!

[Fraggo5]

Lifetime ban if that was possible is more appropriate!

[Edmon]

Just to answer some moderation questions:

1) The 1 month ban will lead to a permanent ban if this user does not clean up their posts and/or is unrepentant at the end of the period. It is the "last" punishment we use in moderation cases. We will private message such people and ask them to agree to our rules and agree that their behaviour is unacceptable. We feel it is important to at least try to get someone to take back what they said and apologise and give them time to think about what they have done.

Now, will a change and an apology be forth coming? Probably not based on what I've seen. But we have the process and it is only fair to everyone we follow it. This person does not have any previous incidents reported, so this is as far as I can see, a first offense.

2) We leave what people said up because we want everyone to be able to see why someone has been moderated and/or banned. The forums are always moving and these posts will eventually disappear into history, but it is important that everyone can see why we are taking the actions we take and that we are being fair in all our actions.

I hope this explaination helps everyone .

[PeteJC]

I couldn't agree more with Red Lancer and very sorry to see Loki go. He was EXTREMELY helpful. Can't blame him though. Who needs that kind of nonsense in their life.

[Sly]

this attack on Looki was so stupid that it was obvious. If the ban doesn't help, I think that this guy will have to be removed from the forum. I also hope that Looki will pick up and come back to the forum. I believe he was popular and needed

[ElizabethWizard]

He was also being homofobic and matrix have recently signed a inclusivity for lgbtq+ pledge!

Transphobic too. I'm not out here to be That Girl(tm) but my one brush with the dude was *alarming.*. I've heard people talk like him before and to a last man they were all, shall we say, fans of a belligerent in this war.

Like not to contradict the top post here by a mod but the dude has a history even if he wasn't reported. The only reason I didn't report/bother with his BS is because I could smell this kind of post just eminating from him and knew i would put myself in danger even responding to him.

Forget whether or not it's his first infraction. That post? Plus the fact that he's using another users image as his PFP? That's a threat. That's him saying "I know how to find you.". That's him saying "I don't see you as human and would kill you if I had the chance.". I am serious when I say that beyond the rules this person is actively dangerous to your community.