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Hugging - 3/25/2020 6:45:51 AM   
eskuche

 

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There have been quite a number of tips regarding hugging enemy units. One thing that isn't talked about logistical attrition. I am of the mind that as the Axis you should especially be taking care not to hug too many Soviet units. In fact, most of my early game losses (I'd say topping 80%?) are attrition losses.

I ran a quick test by hugging with 12x70-75 morale units vs. 12x80-90 morale units in Road to Leningrad. The first group took 1900-2400 casualties a turn, the second 1500-1800. I don't think you take morale hit for attrition, so is it worth maintaining early game front lines with minimal hugging, using only higher morale units?

Case in point, I am sieging Odessa next turn but saved probably 400 men simply by not being next to the city this turn. Moving up one space next turn doesn't really matter to me. Extrapolate this across the entire front of 200 divisions (early game, when Germans are chasing) and we save 5,000-10,000 casualties per turn at the expense of ideally 1 MP.





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< Message edited by eskuche -- 3/25/2020 6:46:08 AM >
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RE: Hugging - 3/25/2020 6:52:17 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

There have been quite a number of tips regarding hugging enemy units. One thing that isn't talked about logistical attrition. I am of the mind that as the Axis you should especially be taking care not to hug too many Soviet units. In fact, most of my early game losses (I'd say topping 80%?) are attrition losses.

I ran a quick test by hugging with 12x70-75 morale units vs. 12x80-90 morale units in Road to Leningrad. The first group took 1900-2400 casualties a turn, the second 1500-1800. I don't think you take morale hit for attrition, so is it worth maintaining early game front lines with minimal hugging, using only higher morale units?

Case in point, I am sieging Odessa next turn but saved probably 400 men simply by not being next to the city this turn. Moving up one space next turn doesn't really matter to me. Extrapolate this across the entire front of 200 divisions (early game, when Germans are chasing) and we save 5,000-10,000 casualties per turn at the expense of ideally 1 MP.






You can't hug if you obey the social distancing rules

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RE: Hugging - 3/25/2020 7:53:58 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
There have been quite a number of tips regarding hugging enemy units... I am of the mind that as the Axis you should especially be taking care not to hug too many Soviet units....save 5,000-10,000 casualties per turn at the expense of ideally 1 MP.


It is good advice - my only question is how feasible is this?

In general if the Axis stepped back one hex at the end of each turn the Soviet side could simply step forward at the end of their turn. The result would be the same attrition as before but with more fatigue/less fuel from the extra movement and one less hex of advance to add to the injury.

There are cases like the one shown where it may be feasible where the Soviet side would not want to approach the Axis side if this would mean abandoning fortified positions. But this is the exception rather than the rule.

Nevertheless this is good advice for the Soviet side that they should make a special effort to hug enemy units, enemy motorised especially.




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RE: Hugging - 3/25/2020 10:55:24 AM   
morvael


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Soviets suffer more, but of course not as much as from killing units in an encirclement.

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RE: Hugging - 3/25/2020 3:27:18 PM   
joelmar


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I always try not to hug units when I can. But I agree with Telemecus, it's rarely possible to do it and not be detrimental to operations.

Another important thing to consider, maybe not the case for Odessa because it already has high fort levels, but when you hug the enemy's units, they don't build up fort levels as efficiently, and that may be an equalizer in the end, higher fort levels means more fighting to be done to get to where you want to go... so more casualites, so maybe it ends up rounding the circle?

As Morvael says, it works both ways too of course, and the Soviet logistics losses are always way higher than the Germans. I know attrition in this game rarely favors the German from the overall point of view, but still not as bad as it seems I think.

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RE: Hugging - 3/25/2020 7:00:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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* Hug with Soviets

* practice social distance as Germans when feasible.


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RE: Hugging - 3/26/2020 12:57:04 AM   
56ajax


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Lets look at the manual :

Units that begin their turn adjacent to enemy units during their logistics phase will suffer additional attrition losses representing low intensity combat, with approximately 0.30-0.50% percent of ground elements in a unit being destroyed, with the rest being disabled.

One of the key words is adjacent, so I assume that if you place one of your units against 9 of the enemy then all 9 suffer attrition. Doesn't seem to matter about the quality of the unit doing the hugging either.

And does anyone know what the rest being disabled refers to, like the rest of what?



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RE: Hugging - 3/26/2020 2:07:04 AM   
eskuche

 

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9.5 says "For manpower losses due to attrition, approximately thirty percent will be killed and seventy percent disabled." I assume here the 30/70 ratio is omitted accidentally.

I ran a test, putting 27 starting divisions against various numbers of enemy stacks, with 6 units not facing enemies. No replacements. The non-adjacent units somehow gained a not insignificant number of men (?). Adjacent units lost 600-2000 men each over ten turns. I put morale and number of adjacent enemies vs. losses in a multiple linear regression model, and, surprisingly, neither really seem to have an effect.

Edit: maybe not quite no effect for morale, using a 50 morale security division or Rumanian unit vs. a 90 morale elite German unit is going to cost on average 20-30 more men per turn per division. In reality, you're going to be deciding between a 75 morale and 85 morale German unit, in which case the addition loss for choosing which division stays by the enemy is pretty moot.

The equation I got was losses = -.6 * (morale) + 4.3 * enemies units nearby + 140. This was a really quick and dirty, but if this is true, one can chase with a regiment to yield disproportionate losses.


< Message edited by eskuche -- 3/26/2020 2:20:59 AM >

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RE: Hugging - 4/2/2020 11:06:00 AM   
chaos45

 

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Hugging units depends on situation.

Even for the soviets early on it can be bad esp with low experience units as they will take very heavy attrition losses and early in the game the soviets need manpower to rebuild formations.

For both sides if you can keep your main assault units out of contact at the end of the turn its better for them the next turn. Each turn your in contact you take more fatigue and attrition losses on your key formations. So if you can its almost always better to attack and then try to shield these elements from enemy contact by the end of the turn. Use infantry to screen them from the enemy getting back into contact. Yes as the Germans in 41 this is difficult due to how fast you are advancing but whenever possible it will keep your tanks stronger.

This works the same for the soviets as well, esp early on when you are trying to build up guards units and increase morale...attack and fall back with the units you want to save. Try to never keep key units directly in the frontline if you don't have to.

Another key thing unless rules have changed...as soviets use brigades to cause attrition to the Germans that way you lose less men while germans eat the attrition losses...esp when you retreat you can leave BDEs next to german panzer/motorized units to wear them down in their logistics phase.

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RE: Hugging - 4/2/2020 2:58:46 PM   
redrum68

 

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@eskuche - Did you test different size units? Wondering if say a division and a regiment have the same number of losses for being next to an enemy unit or if losses are percentage based on the size of the unit? As your formula would seem to indicate the unit size doesn't matter.

Also by "enemies units nearby" is that a single division/regiment/etc? So wondering if you break say 1 division into 3 regiment would it cause more attrition to an adjacent enemy unit? If so then is it always better to breakdown a division next to an enemy if its the only unit on that hex?

< Message edited by redrum68 -- 4/2/2020 3:04:20 PM >

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RE: Hugging - 4/2/2020 3:17:29 PM   
joelmar


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I know in 1.11.03 units smaller units take a lesser ratio of combat losses. I don't know if that applies to attrition losses too. It would be interesting to know.

A good way to help units recover fatigue fast is to drop them supplies.

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RE: Hugging - 4/2/2020 9:32:38 PM   
Dinglir


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When playing Soviets I virtually always set a color code for units with very low morale (especially Brigades). I then set them to 20% MaxToE and attach them to STAVKA. I then send them adjacent to the Germans in such a way that every German frontlin unit should have one Soviet unit adjacent at the end of every turn. The Germans are then faced with the choice of spending time encircling weak units or just running over them. In any case they will pay some time and casualties.

Yes, you will lose a lot of 20% TOE Brigades, but who cares? They will slow the Germans a little and inflict casualties out of all proportion to the manpower they cost.

As a side effect, this strategy will also let you channel your reinforcements into the units where they can actually do some good.

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RE: Hugging - 4/2/2020 10:01:10 PM   
eskuche

 

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@redrum68 and joelmar, no unfortunately I have not tested regiments for this purpose. It is an easy test to run if anyone feels up to it.

@chaos45 and Dingler, thanks for confirming my thoughts. It's just that this hasn't been explicitly mentioned anywhere. Maybe I'm re-inventing the wheel here. And chaos45, yes exactly that's what I'm trying to do, i.e., leaving future assault units one hex back with a holding unit at the front line to maintain hex ownership/ZOC.

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