Distant Worlds: Introduction of the alien races.

[Scott_WAR]

Possums in space!!!!!!!

[Scott_WAR]

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

BTW
Thx Scott_War for Holy Cows and Fanatical Ferrets. Sounds funny.

Dont forget the Cows and Chikins,....err umm Chickens, are very hostile to each other..........

[martok]

Heh. I think the Ugnari are my favorite-sounding race so far. Certainly they have the most amusing description!

[Wade1000]

tm.asp?m=2391696 : wish list thread

Planetary bombardment and post conquest genocide options; let's do it.

In game genocide, via planetary bombardment and post conquest options, is not so negative when applied to space alien races of very extreme differences.

I agree that planetary bombardment of structures and population AND post-conquest genocide options, with the result of lowering diplomatic reputation and lowering one's own race population happiness, should be a feature.
The more similiar the target race is to one's own race, and if one's own race is not extremely aggresive, then there should be degrees of unhappiness penalties applied to one's own population; as well as diplomatic reputation penalties from foreign civilization races similiar to one's own.
Extremely aggresive races should be immune to their own population becoming unhappy due to planetary bombardment and genocide; but still affected by diplomatic reputation penalties from foreign civilization races different than them.

A high reputation or mildly aggressive race might do it sometimes. A low reputation or extremely aggresive race might do it often. I would expect an extremely aggressive race to do it often. If I want to play as an extremely aggressive race I would want to do it.

Again, in game genocide is not so negative when applied to space alien races of very extreme differences.
If a race is at war with scary, extremely aggressive race that never surrenders, has no emotions we think as positive, and eats and/or assimilates/absorbs people then it might be beneficial to bombard and do post-conquest genocide. In reverse, an extremely aggressive race would most likely bombard and do post-conquest genocide whenever they can. If the extremely aggressive race eats people then that would be slow genocide. There are many examples of those scenarios in science-fiction stories.
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I totaly believe that present or future Humans and similiar races would be willing to often do genocide via planetary bombardment and post conquest options. Especially if the target enemy races are Borg-like, Zerg-like(Starcraft), Flood-like(Halo), Tyranid-like(Warhammer 40,000), any various races like spiders,insects, or others similiar that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they eat us or do genocide against us), maybe like the Wraith of Stargate Atlantis, any robotic race that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they do genocide gainst us): maybe like Terminators and their Skynet AI leader, like Replicators of Stargate-SG1 TV series, and like Necrons of Warhammer 40,000.

There are many more alien races in science-fiction stories that I believe that Humans and similiar races would be willing to often do genocide against via planetary bombardment and post conquest options.
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I, and others, have been opposed to how some game developers sometimes exclude, in new games, popular features from previous successful games. I suppose that it could be for game balance of power, budget constraints, time constraints, or to be unique.

To not include these, and certain other features, is artificial limitations. For example, in the game, I am a galactic civilization leader and I order my fleet to bombard an enemy planet. Yet, for some reason, my ship weapons can not fire.

These are some of my personal requests. I understand that maybe some others will disagree.
Code Force and Matrix Games, please delay the release of Distant Worlds to implement the feature of planetary bombardment and genocide choices after conquest. I know that it may be too late. If so, then please implement them in an update as soon as possible.
Maybe the companies can take a poll to see what others think about planetary bombardment, post-conquest genocide choices, and other features.

Again, in game genocide, via planetary bombardment and post conquest options, is not so negative when applied to space alien races of very extreme differences.

Does anyone else agree?
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Armada 2526 has 6 options for post conquest of systems/planets. The words chosen are all gramatically similiar and sound like a nice poem...heh. I like them.
The options are: (In quotes is what the mouse-over tooltip shows.)

-Subjugate ("Take control of the colony")
-Exterminate ("Eleminate all life at this colony (#) casualties")
-Devastate (This will detroy structures.)
-Contaminate (This requires infection technology and the ships to deliver it as a weapon.)
-Obliterate ( This asteroid ship technology and the ships built to deliver them as weapons.)
-Take No Action ("Do nothing")

These options might be someting to consider for Distant Worlds. Don't worry about an issue of copying. It's good to emulate good ideas.
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Any game of this genre without planetary bombardment and post conquest genocide options seems like an unfinished product. Games that I can think of in this genre all had it and those games that did not have it upon release later added it. Thus, it seems, that any game of this genre should be released with it.
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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2402878&mpage=2&key=? : "A few screenshots..."

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Wade1000
How does this "exterminate" work? Are you just refering to conquering and invading planets?

There are two routes:
1. Conquer them all, don't accept peace. They'll offer you various things to end the war, but you don't have to accept. This is the "easier" route in terms of repercussions. End result, you own all their worlds, they are no longer an independent faction. Keep in mind though that the longer the war, the greater the war weariness of your own people. Single wars are rarely decisive before peace (or a truce) starts looking like a good option, usually it takes several clashes to really cut an opponent down to size.

2. Bombard them back to the stone age - the more traditional "exterminate". If you choose this option, you had better be fighting against the most evil and urgent threat the galaxy has ever faced, or everyone else in the galaxy is likely to start viewing _you_ as the most evil and urgent threat the galaxy has ever faced. Typically, no other race in the galaxy likes to see planets being bombarded to rubble and will react accordingly lest the same fate befall their own worlds. Now if you really happen to be fighting an alien race that really has behaved in a way that makes everyone else in the galaxy hate them and consider them evil, you've got a much freer hand in how you deal with the problem.
Regards,
- Erik

Excellent!
-Now I wish for some post conquest genocide options too.
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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2402878&mpage=2&key=? : "A few screenshots..."

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Wade,

Elliot used some of the extra time while waiting for art to add in bombardment. [8D]

Regards,

- Erik

OH...MY...GOD! I love you guys. I thank you all.
-Now I wish for some post conquest genocide options too.

I think Distant Worlds will be fun and a big success.
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Also, we might want to sometimes avoid planetary bombardment to capture structures and technology. Then once we have the planet with some infrastructure we may not want to accept some particular alien races...so...post conquest genocide options.
That sounds bad when thinking of other Humans.
Yet, in game genocide, via planetary bombardment and post conquest options, is not so negative when applied to space alien races of very extreme differences; especially if they aqre extremily hostile, eat other races, etcetera.
tm.asp?m=2391696 : wish list thread

Post genocide options along with planetary bombardment offer interesting strategic choices. The desicion to bombard planets might be in correlation to how many troop transports you brought with your fleet or task force. You may have focused on ships to attack and defend instead of vunerable transports. Thus you you might find you saving the few transports you have for important planet invasions while bombarding lesser planets.
Of course, you will have to deal with any diplomatic repercussions that might bring if your enemy is not of negative reputation. That's even more strategy choices involved.

[Wade1000]

Oh, and these race portraits and descriptions are, well, awesome. Much better art than some more popular companies have done. I give praise to the game art and game development members. I hope they get the rewards they deserve.

There are now some race types that I wanted; an insectoid race, an ice habitation race, a furred mammalian race, an amphibious race. The insectoid Sulken race might also satisfy me as the parasitic assimilating(absorbs and incorporates), bio-mass using race similiar to 'Zerg' of Starcraft, 'The Flood' of Halo Legends movie, or others similiar.

I always like the aliens to have a variety of body shapes other than just humanoid and at least one of each of:
-a robotic/android race
-a cyborg race(part machine, part biological)
-a parasitic assimilating(absorbs and incorporates), bio-mass using race similiar to 'Zerg' of Starcraft, 'The Flood' of Halo, 'Tyranids' of Warhammer 40,000, or others similiar.
-(one or more) insectoid race similiar to ants, wasps, mantis, and roaches
-a spider like race
-a crab like race
-an under water habitat race
-an ice habitat race
-a floater, gas giant planet dwelling race
-a scaled reptilian race
-a feathered avian race
-a furred mammalian race
-an amphibious race
-a tentacled race

[Duckfang]

While it would be nice to have more options than complete integration, I'm inclined to agree with this:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
But, if you want realism, at least think about the argument that completely destroying a world's population without also making that world uninhabitable, would be nearly impossible - even if you used biological warfare (it would have to be REALLY tailored). I think SotS does a decent job of showing this, and I applaud Kerberos for that.

Completely depopulating a planet by any means is going to be a huge endeavour. If you want to just bombard the population then you're certainly going to wreck the environment and I'd imagine when you land you're going to find all those sprawling cities and well-developed networks for infrastructure are smoking ruins (and then you get to start over; after you've cleared all the debris out of the way).

If you want to go the Nazi/Soviet ways to exterminating or enslaving the population then you're looking at many years (decades, probably) of expensive work while you try to root out billions of beings (I'd imagine you're going to have to deal with intense guerilla attacks, too).

If you're wanting to use a biological or chemical weapons to kill them all then like Son said, it's going to have to be one damn specific weapon to kill all the inhabitants without wrecking the planet as well.

I'm inclined to agree with Gertjan; I liked GalCiv2s approach to planetary assaults.

[Wade1000]

Duckfang, you seem to contradict yourself.

Completely depopulating a planet by any means is going to be a huge endeavour. If you want to just bombard the population then you're certainly going to wreck the environment and I'd imagine when you land you're going to find all those sprawling cities and well-developed networks for infrastructure are smoking ruins (and then you get to start over; after you've cleared all the debris out of the way).

This might be desirable to do against certain races. Afterwards, the planet can be abandoned...or efforts can be made to re-colonize and terraform it.

If you want to go the Nazi/Soviet ways to exterminating or enslaving the population then you're looking at many years (decades, probably) of expensive work while you try to root out billions of beings (I'd imagine you're going to have to deal with intense guerilla attacks, too).

That's a reason that can support planetary bombardment and post conquest genocide.

If you're wanting to use a biological or chemical weapons to kill them all then like Son said, it's going to have to be one damn specific weapon to kill all the inhabitants without wrecking the planet as well.

An advanced civilization should be able to tailor such a biological weapon. Also, the biological weapon can be made to die out after it has killed the enemy. Also, if it kills flora and fauna on the planet then the planet can be abondoned or efforts can be made to colonize and terraform it.

I'm inclined to agree with Gertjan; I liked GalCiv2s approach to planetary assaults.

The absence of planetary bombardment(and post conquest genocide options) is one missing feature of Galactic Civilizations 2 that was a great negative to me. It was one of several issues that helped me determine how long I continued to play and invest time and money for the game.

Again, in game genocide, via planetary bombardment and post conquest options, is not so negative when applied to space alien races of very extreme differences.
To not include these, and certain other features, is artificial limitations. For example, in the game, I am a galactic civilization leader and I order my fleet to bombard an enemy planet. Yet, for some reason, my ship weapons can not fire.

[Duckfang]

Where did I contradict myself? 0.o

I'd said I'd like to be able to do more than fully integrate a conquered populace into my empire, but I also don't want it to be just "lol exterminate" like it was in Rome: TW.

SOTS and GC2 both went in the right direction, I think. The idea that, sure, you can pulverise the planet (or gas it, or detonate the core, or carry out tidal disruption, or whatever) but you might remove the whole reason for conquering the planet in the first place.

I've no doubt that one of the more aggressive races would have no problem (morally) simply exterminating or exterminating the inhabitants of a given planet but I can't really see a race similar to our own just shrugging and going "Well they were jerks" after hearing we slaughtered millions of civilians in our efforts to depopulate a planet.

Perhaps that could be some kind of racial trait; "No morale penalty for genocide"? EDIT: Actually, perhaps that could be on a sliding scale based on the races aggression score, or something along those lines.

Again, I agree there should be more to do with a population than attempt to integrate them into your empire. I just don't think that the only penalty for doing it would be that some of the other races think you're kind of mean for carrying out genocide.

[Sarissofoi]

Hahaha.
Get real man. Look what happend on earth when people fighting each other. And then think that there is epic total war in space against alien races.
Yeah, they are jerks.
But ofcourse if you and your enemy agrre to some sort of deal(for example you sign that you dont use biochemical weapons) and then broke this deal then yeah - massive diplomatic penalty is understable. In other case - It is war.
Remember :
"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

Dont espect that everobody will play nice in galaxy and dont ecspect that anobody will care if that don affect them.

[Wade1000]

Well, your whole post seemed contradictory in general. Maybe I misunderstood about your stance on the issue of the feature. Your response post brings more understanding.

So, you support the feature of in game genocide via planetary bombardment and post conquest options. You just want strict diplomatic reputation repercussions.
Yet...you agree with GalCiv2's mechanic of disallowing planetary bombardment and post conquest genocide options. (I am unfamiliar with what features Sword of the Stars has.)

ORIGINAL: Duckfang
I've no doubt that one of the more aggressive races would have no problem (morally) simply exterminating or exterminating the inhabitants of a given planet but I can't really see a race similar to our own just shrugging and going "Well they were jerks" after hearing we slaughtered millions of civilians in our efforts to depopulate a planet.

I totaly believe that present or future Humans and similiar races would be willing to often do genocide via planetary bombardment and post conquest options. Especially if the target enemy races are Borg-like, Zerg-like(Starcraft), Flood-like(Halo), Tyranid-like(Warhammer 40,000), any various races like spiders,insects, or others similiar that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they eat us or do genocide against us), maybe like the Wraith of Stargate Atlantis, any robotic race that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they do genocide gainst us): maybe like Terminators and their Skynet AI leader, like Replicators of Stargate-SG1 TV series, and like Necrons of Warhammer 40,000.

There are many more alien races in science-fiction stories that I believe that Humans and similiar races would be willing to often do genocide against via planetary bombardment and post conquest options.
Again, in game genocide, via planetary bombardment and post conquest options, is not so negative when applied to space alien races of very extreme differences.

[Sarissofoi]

Actually SotS had only one basic option: Glass them(you only choose how to glass them). Recently xeno techs were added and you can demand surrender from enemy planets. You can blockad them and if their morale drop  low they will surender. You need only keep them under blockade for some time. And ofcourse kick ass any defending or relief fleet they have send to deal with you. When they surrender  this is part for genocide. Why?
First:You need enough level of xenotech , if you dont have enough alien colonist will die.
Second:Becoze you must terramorf planet to your standarts(on you will take massive economic penalty) and that mean extremly high death number to alien race colonist(especially if their home planet have big diffrences in hospitability with yours).
Then demanding surrender is ok. That was very good freature. I like it. You can blockade them and play nice if you want(and I like this). Yeah that is right directions. But they still have long way ahead.

And about extermination.
Food. Target food production+blocakde planet from help you will see more deaths on planet that you imagine. Hunger and disease will kill milions. More population in colony=more victims.
Also food can be used to control alien population. Brutal? Yeah, sure. Welcome in real world.

[Wade1000]

Okay.

Armada 2526 has 6 options for post conquest of systems...not just one planet. The words chosen are all gramatically similiar and sound like a nice poem...heh. I like them.
The options are: (In quotes is what the mouse-over tooltip shows.)

-Subjugate ("Take control of the colony")
-Exterminate ("Eleminate all life at this colony (#) casualties")
-Devastate (This will detroy structures.)
-Contaminate (This requires infection technology and the ships to deliver it as a weapon.)
-Obliterate ( This asteroid ship technology and the ships built to deliver them as weapons.)
-Take No Action ("Do nothing")

These options might be someting to consider for Distant Worlds. Don't worry about an issue of copying. It's good to emulate good ideas.

[Duckfang]

ORIGINAL: Wade1000
Yet...you agree with GalCiv2's mechanic of disallowing planetary bombardment and post conquest genocide options. (I am unfamiliar with what features Sword of the Stars has.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but GalCiv2 had several different methods of planetary assault.

Off the top of my head there was conventional assault (ie, landing waves and waves of troops), core detonation, tidal disruption, poison gas, dropping asteroids on the planet, and a hearts & minds style information warfare.

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

Hahaha.
Get real man. Look what happend on earth when people fighting each other. And then think that there is epic total war in space against alien races.
Yeah, they are jerks.
But ofcourse if you and your enemy agrre to some sort of deal(for example you sign that you dont use biochemical weapons) and then broke this deal then yeah - massive diplomatic penalty is understable. In other case - It is war.
Remember :
"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

Dont espect that everobody will play nice in galaxy and dont ecspect that anobody will care if that don affect them.

Congrats for completely ignoring what I said.

I didn't say it doesn't happen or that no one does it. I said there should be repercussions for carrying it out.

Remember how popular the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were after word of their atrocities got out? Remember how shocked most Germans were when they found out about the concentration camps?

"Well I was at war!" isn't usually regarded as a very good way to excuse senseless acts of genocide and destruction.

Some races wouldn't care about such things, but to any race similar to our own I'm pretty sure such things are abhorrent. Sometimes justified, perhaps, but outright genocide and extermination is still generally frowned upon.

There are exceptions of course, and Wade touches on some of them quite well:

I totaly believe that present or future Humans and similiar races would be willing to often do genocide via planetary bombardment and post conquest options. Especially if the target enemy races are Borg-like, Zerg-like(Starcraft), Flood-like(Halo), Tyranid-like(Warhammer 40,000), any various races like spiders,insects, or others similiar that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they eat us or do genocide against us), maybe like the Wraith of Stargate Atlantis, any robotic race that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they do genocide gainst us): maybe like Terminators and their Skynet AI leader, or like Replicators of Stargate-SG1 TV series.

I do agree with this. Races like the Borg, Zerg and machine races can be reasoned in the minds of most people as not really being intelligent in the same way as we are, and thus genocide isn't really so different from culling an animal population - a necessary step. The same applies to a race that sees us as a food supply or one that has previously committed genocide against us.

Though I doubt the game will go into this kind of depth (if Elliot does decide to add bombardment and genocide), it'd be nice to have a set of modifiers that control how your own population regard acts of genocide.

For example, if Race A and Race B are at war over some disputed territory and both are a democratic Human-like (in terms of values, etc) race and Race A commits genocide against Race B they (Race A) might experience serious unrest against the perceived atrocities.

Race B then retaliates with a similar act of genocide, but Race B's population is more willing to give it a pass on the grounds that "they deserved it" so Race B experiences perhaps still a small morale hit, but not nearly as large as the one Race A took.

Or, as Wade said, bombarding a race of living nightmares like the Zerg shouldn't really bring any serious hits to your civilian morale. Also, as I pointed out earlier, if you're playing as the Zerg you shouldn't experience any of those kinds of morale penalties as your people either don't care or aren't capable of caring.

[Wade1000]

ORIGINAL: Duckfang

Correct me if I'm wrong, but GalCiv2 had several different methods of planetary assault.

Off the top of my head there was conventional assault (ie, landing waves and waves of troops), core detonation, tidal disruption, poison gas, dropping asteroids on the planet, and a hearts & minds style information warfare.

Alright, well, I may be mistaken on that part seeing as how I never played beyond the original game without the 2 expansions. I know, I hear the game is much improved with the expansions. Maybe I should consider trying them. I DID forget about the addition of, in the second expansion, the ship that destroys stars. "core detonation, tidal disruption, poison gas, dropping asteroids on the planet, and a hearts & minds style information warfare." If these are additional options in the two Galactic Civilization 2 expansions then that is good.
Or are they from Sword of the Stars?

ORIGINAL: Duckfang

I do agree with this. Races like the Borg, Zerg and machine races can be reasoned in the minds of most people as not really being intelligent in the same way as we are, and thus genocide isn't really so different from culling an animal population - a necessary step. The same applies to a race that sees us as a food supply or one that has previously committed genocide against us.

Though I doubt the game will go into this kind of depth (if Elliot does decide to add bombardment and genocide), it'd be nice to have a set of modifiers that control how your own population regard acts of genocide.

For example, if Race A and Race B are at war over some disputed territory and both are a democratic Human-like (in terms of values, etc) race and Race A commits genocide against Race B they (Race A) might experience serious unrest against the perceived atrocities.

Race B then retaliates with a similar act of genocide, but Race B's population is more willing to give it a pass on the grounds that "they deserved it" so Race B experiences perhaps still a small morale hit, but not nearly as large as the one Race A took.

Or, as Wade said, bombarding a race of living nightmares like the Zerg shouldn't really bring any serious hits to your civilian morale. Also, as I pointed out earlier, if you're playing as the Zerg you shouldn't experience any of those kinds of morale penalties as your people either don't care or aren't capable of caring.

I like your ideas here. I have rethought about a race's OWN population getting unhappy due to bombardment and genocide against races similiar to us.

I agree that, the more similiar the target race is to one's own race, and if one's own race is not xenophobic, then there should be degrees of unhappiness penalties applied to one's own population; as well as diplomatic reputation penalties from foreign civilization races similiar to one's own.
Xenophobic races should be immune to their own population becomming unhappy due to planetary bombardment and genocide; but still affected by diplomatic reputation penalties from foreign civilization races different than them.

[Gertjan]

Tense discussion we have going here. Let's keep it nice. Can somebody please explain what the current options are in the game DW?
Wade, you should really try Galciv2 again. It has really improved. The AI is very good and there is some really entertaining dialogue.
While I agree with very extreme races on the moral aspects of genocide, I disagree on this aspect if the races are quite similar to humans and there would be even relationships between people of different races in peace times or because of trade and tourism. In these cases there might be considerable opposition to wiping them out, or it might have considerable diplomatic repercussions from similar races. I hope that in the case of the humans it is quite likely in DW that a part of the empire defects to a new empire in the game (or even more than 1). This could pose some moral dilemmas if the only options was a la Rome TW to completely wipe them out.

[Duckfang]

Were the varied assault options only in the expansions? I don't think I've played GalCiv2 without them. My bad, then.

Glad we were able to find some common ground, Wade. Though I would disagree that a xenophobic race would be okay with exterminating another species; they may not wish to deal with them but that doesn't necessarily mean they wish them any ill. I would say it should be more tied to aggression.

EDIT: I left the "out" out of "without". Whoops.

[Wade1000]

Were the varied assault options only in the expansions? I don't think I've played GalCiv2 with them. My bad, then.

Unless they were in the very later research tree or a very later update patch. I never could get interested enough to play that far.

Glad we were able to find some common ground, Wade. Though I would disagree that a xenophobic race would be okay with exterminating another species; they may not wish to deal with them but that doesn't necessarily mean they wish them any ill. I would say it should be more tied to aggression.

Another good point. Thankyou. Now I should go back and edit "xenophobic" to "extremly aggresive" in the wish list thread.

[Wade1000]

All the race portrait art is very well done. To me, the Sulken race portrait art seems exceptionally well done. I kept going back to look at it. I have put it as my screen/desktop picture now.

[Wade1000]

I am consolidating, via "quote" button and copy/pasting, the alien races to the top/original post of this thread so that we can more easily see them all. This will help out new people viewing especially. The race portraits are in order of the number before their race name in the portraits.

[cdbeck]

All the race portrait art is very well done. To me, the Sulken race portrait art seems exceptionally well done. I kept going back to look at it. I have put it as my screen/desktop picture now.

My thoughts exactly Wade!