OK, I am trying to use the suggestions in here to find someway to at least buy time somewhat historical to stop the ground onslaught.
Someone suggested retreating out of city before getting defeated and will attract the supply. I have tried that in Inchang - my units sit there with 10 supplies of 350 needed while they now occupy the city. I was out before the attack.
The second in Clark Field and sent my HQ two turns early to try to draw supply to Bataan, then the rest of the units except one to hold base temp until supply arrives. No success supply does not follow HQ that quickly ( maybe with enemy in hex - does in Australia/India) and now after leaving 25k of supply behind while entering a hex in short supply my units are sure to lose even faster and he gets his supply dump faster than if it would have taken another week to fall.
I don't understand why anyone would think that. Any comments, things I did wrong.
strategy frontline in china
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: strategy frontline in china
Well, I have very limited experience with the scen 15, but in my current pbem (late Jan '42) I'm holding both Yenen and Changsa fairly well. Due to all your past and present posts I had the foresight to rush units to both cities right at game start. Changsa has repelled 3 sets of attacks and kicked the IJA out every time. Yenen is a bit of a different story. My opponent, Belfegor, has no fewer than 5 divisions and 3 Ind Brigades there to my 8-10 assorted Chinese units. He's pounding me with artillery, but his attacks have been quite costly. I tried a counter attack once--bad idea. I was pretty nervous I might have broken my ability to defend well, but I held the line. Fort level is 3 right now, so your posts also make me a bit nervous. I could go into more stuff, but it's a game in progress. Thought I'd throw that out to you guys since I'm in the throws of exactly what's being talked about.
RE: strategy frontline in china
AirGriff
In Yenan it is difficult to throw Japan back because it is wooded terrain and you have fewer units. My rule of thumb there is you must have two chinese corp to each Jap division to have a chance. So he can get to the city with more force than you can defeat. All you can do here is bombard. This is not so bad unless he brings his whole army. Most of you losses are disabled units vs. killed so just watch your %disabled and make sure it does not go over 50%. When it gets close rotate the unit back to Lanchow for rest. You will see that you now have a much more experienced unit.
If he has 5 divisions and 3 Ind bdes at Yenan you may well lose there. Plus he can always bring more troops and insure a win. It a gut call on when to retreat. If you do retreat set your destinations for one of the cities in the rear. If you set it for a non-city hex the movement might be reset to zero by enemy action. Might split up a division and put the parts beside but not on the road to Langchow. These parts can harrass the enemy pursuit to Lanchow if he takes Yenan.
If he takes Yenan and tries to drive to Lanchow with a large force this can even be good. Get enough troops to stop him at that city south of Lanchow and he has a long walk back to Yenan.
Sounds like you're doing good at Changsa. How many Divisions did you retreat?? Isn't the shock attack fun!![:D]
In Yenan it is difficult to throw Japan back because it is wooded terrain and you have fewer units. My rule of thumb there is you must have two chinese corp to each Jap division to have a chance. So he can get to the city with more force than you can defeat. All you can do here is bombard. This is not so bad unless he brings his whole army. Most of you losses are disabled units vs. killed so just watch your %disabled and make sure it does not go over 50%. When it gets close rotate the unit back to Lanchow for rest. You will see that you now have a much more experienced unit.
If he has 5 divisions and 3 Ind bdes at Yenan you may well lose there. Plus he can always bring more troops and insure a win. It a gut call on when to retreat. If you do retreat set your destinations for one of the cities in the rear. If you set it for a non-city hex the movement might be reset to zero by enemy action. Might split up a division and put the parts beside but not on the road to Langchow. These parts can harrass the enemy pursuit to Lanchow if he takes Yenan.
If he takes Yenan and tries to drive to Lanchow with a large force this can even be good. Get enough troops to stop him at that city south of Lanchow and he has a long walk back to Yenan.
Sounds like you're doing good at Changsa. How many Divisions did you retreat?? Isn't the shock attack fun!![:D]
RE: strategy frontline in china
Medicff:
The theory is if you don't send a lot of troops to say Changsa not much supply will go there and so losing the city won't be as bad. Also if you retreat well before the enemy takes it supply will flow out of the city. I think it takes a while and I think it also depends on factors out of your control. For example If you have 40,000 sp at Changsa and you pull out but all your other bases have adequate supply I don't think anything will move. If Chungking is low however the supply will probably move very quickly.
So the best bet is if you don't want to fight for Changsa then don't send troops there. It makes no sence to send 20 Corps to Changsa as I recommend and then retreat when the enemy gets there. All you will have accomplished is to draw supply to where Japan can capture it.
If you send troops to Changsa it is to shock attack any enemy who steps foot in your city. I figure if you can hold Changsa open (no enemy in hex) for an extra month then you have produced enough supply there to make up for what gets lost if you lose the city.
Now say Japan masses his entire army at Changsa and my shock attack fails. Well by now my forts are up to 6 or so so I probably won't be retreated right away. It makes sence to try to get a few divisions out so supply requirement drops a little before you attempt your big bug out.
The theory is if you don't send a lot of troops to say Changsa not much supply will go there and so losing the city won't be as bad. Also if you retreat well before the enemy takes it supply will flow out of the city. I think it takes a while and I think it also depends on factors out of your control. For example If you have 40,000 sp at Changsa and you pull out but all your other bases have adequate supply I don't think anything will move. If Chungking is low however the supply will probably move very quickly.
So the best bet is if you don't want to fight for Changsa then don't send troops there. It makes no sence to send 20 Corps to Changsa as I recommend and then retreat when the enemy gets there. All you will have accomplished is to draw supply to where Japan can capture it.
If you send troops to Changsa it is to shock attack any enemy who steps foot in your city. I figure if you can hold Changsa open (no enemy in hex) for an extra month then you have produced enough supply there to make up for what gets lost if you lose the city.
Now say Japan masses his entire army at Changsa and my shock attack fails. Well by now my forts are up to 6 or so so I probably won't be retreated right away. It makes sence to try to get a few divisions out so supply requirement drops a little before you attempt your big bug out.
RE: strategy frontline in china
I will try that although in one game Changsha gone already. I had read about retreating and preserving force and supply when it gets close, but may save force, not supply and that affects your force a little anyway. I think the key to China is bring in as much outside supply as possible. We will see if this tactic works per Mogami's explaination of supply and disable units.
RE: strategy frontline in china
Many, many players advise either an immediate withdrawl strategy or a soft defence of the front line cities followed by a withdrawl into the interior.
I just figure why make it easy on Japan. Withdraw to the interior and you will probably survive until 43 but you're forces do not have enough supply to sustain themselves. You better hold the Burma road open or you will be in big trouble.
Changsa and Wuhan produce a ton of supply each turn so every day I keep these cities producing strengthens my position. I figure if I keep them open one month longer than retreating players then I at least break even on supply. Plus I hold out at least a possibility of a victory. ie. Retreat some Jap divisions from Changsa and keep that city producing 4 or 5 months into the game and Japan has a problem. If I lose I can always withdrawl to the Kwieyang/Chungking front like everyone else.
I just figure why make it easy on Japan. Withdraw to the interior and you will probably survive until 43 but you're forces do not have enough supply to sustain themselves. You better hold the Burma road open or you will be in big trouble.
Changsa and Wuhan produce a ton of supply each turn so every day I keep these cities producing strengthens my position. I figure if I keep them open one month longer than retreating players then I at least break even on supply. Plus I hold out at least a possibility of a victory. ie. Retreat some Jap divisions from Changsa and keep that city producing 4 or 5 months into the game and Japan has a problem. If I lose I can always withdrawl to the Kwieyang/Chungking front like everyone else.
RE: strategy frontline in china
Just be sure your troops in Kungchang are prepared, rested, and supplied, or the Japanese army will drive them away with ease (just happened in my PBEM, against mainly retreated troops from Yenen -- 1st deliberate attack retreated them all).ORIGINAL: moses
If he takes Yenan and tries to drive to Lanchow with a large force this can even be good. Get enough troops to stop him at that city south of Lanchow and he has a long walk back to Yenan.
If this happens, the Japanese can roll north right up the road and eventually surrender a massive amount of Chinese [X(]
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Tom Hunter
- Posts: 2194
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:57 am
RE: strategy frontline in china
My game has moved to March 1942 and I have noticed some things about fighting in China.
I had a long battle for Wuchow which I finally won throwing the Japanese out after fighting there from January to March. In the process a large number of Chinese units went from approx 40 experience to approx 80.
When the Japanese started the attack they had the advantage in quality and (slightly) in numbers. As the Chinese held on the numbers shifted in China's favor (I reinforced) and the quality advantage slowly eroded as well. I watch my disruption levels and supply as well and when those numbers were good I always switched over to deliberate or shock attack. This pushed my armies experince level up. At the same time my planning levels for Wuchow were reaching 100 in more and more of my units. Finally one day I went from the every day bombardment attack to a deliberate attack. I did not shift the Japanese but the results were the best I had seen so far. The next turn I shocked and he ran away.
My point is that if you can cause a long battle it can shift the terrain under the feet of the Japanese player without him even realizing it until its too late. The rising experience and rising prep numbers can come together and tip the scales quite suddenly.
If you habitually mess around with Japans supply lines this can help too. The other thing you can do is watch the units experience rise but leave the bad commanders in, then switch a number of bad generals for good ones all at once. I did that (more or less by accident) at Wuchow as well.
I also walk units onto the Japanese supply line to Yenen. He paradrops on my supply lines as well. Lots of units get beat up on both sides. As I posted elsewhere China turns into a swamp for the Japanese.
I disagree with Mogami about the Japanese army. I want it far away from the action. I don't want it in Tarawa, I don't want it in India I want it stuck in China where it can't do anything to cause me trouble. If I could send it to the moon that is where it would be but China will have to do.
I had a long battle for Wuchow which I finally won throwing the Japanese out after fighting there from January to March. In the process a large number of Chinese units went from approx 40 experience to approx 80.
When the Japanese started the attack they had the advantage in quality and (slightly) in numbers. As the Chinese held on the numbers shifted in China's favor (I reinforced) and the quality advantage slowly eroded as well. I watch my disruption levels and supply as well and when those numbers were good I always switched over to deliberate or shock attack. This pushed my armies experince level up. At the same time my planning levels for Wuchow were reaching 100 in more and more of my units. Finally one day I went from the every day bombardment attack to a deliberate attack. I did not shift the Japanese but the results were the best I had seen so far. The next turn I shocked and he ran away.
My point is that if you can cause a long battle it can shift the terrain under the feet of the Japanese player without him even realizing it until its too late. The rising experience and rising prep numbers can come together and tip the scales quite suddenly.
If you habitually mess around with Japans supply lines this can help too. The other thing you can do is watch the units experience rise but leave the bad commanders in, then switch a number of bad generals for good ones all at once. I did that (more or less by accident) at Wuchow as well.
I also walk units onto the Japanese supply line to Yenen. He paradrops on my supply lines as well. Lots of units get beat up on both sides. As I posted elsewhere China turns into a swamp for the Japanese.
I disagree with Mogami about the Japanese army. I want it far away from the action. I don't want it in Tarawa, I don't want it in India I want it stuck in China where it can't do anything to cause me trouble. If I could send it to the moon that is where it would be but China will have to do.
RE: strategy frontline in china
When the game came out everyone was saying that China had to retreat and I think that spooked everyone. Everyone was afraid to fight. The key is to mass your force in key locations so that you can match up with Japan at each spot. Its not that hard as Japan only has 4 high speed approaches.
Like you said if you can get into a fair fight it favors the Chinese as your experience goes up a lot with each successful battle.
Like you said if you can get into a fair fight it favors the Chinese as your experience goes up a lot with each successful battle.
RE: strategy frontline in china
Also tho, when the game started Chinese troops didn't start out with 100 prep either [;)]
RE: strategy frontline in china
Moses
I can't remember how many Jap divisions he had at Changsa. The first attack in December was only a division or two with some supporting units. I'm sure I surprised the crap out of him with all my units there. He came back again I believe shortly after I pushed him out the first time--probably thought he just needed a little extra oomph. No dice, I worked him over very well. He probably didn't give his original units time to recoup. The third time came roughly in the third week in Jan. '42. This time he was serious, with I think 4 or so divisions and a fair amount of support. Unfortunately for him, by now my troops had recouped, reinforced and built up fort levels to 5 and had good prep points. Pushed him out within a few days. Great fun. I didn't do a shock attack, though. I've never had good luck with those, but maybe I'll try them again after reading alot of the great posts here.
Yenen is still holding the line, as well. I'm very wary of a flanking move to take Kungchang or a flank move around Yenen itself. I'm taking moves to prevent this stuff. I'd say more, but it's classified[:D].
I can't remember how many Jap divisions he had at Changsa. The first attack in December was only a division or two with some supporting units. I'm sure I surprised the crap out of him with all my units there. He came back again I believe shortly after I pushed him out the first time--probably thought he just needed a little extra oomph. No dice, I worked him over very well. He probably didn't give his original units time to recoup. The third time came roughly in the third week in Jan. '42. This time he was serious, with I think 4 or so divisions and a fair amount of support. Unfortunately for him, by now my troops had recouped, reinforced and built up fort levels to 5 and had good prep points. Pushed him out within a few days. Great fun. I didn't do a shock attack, though. I've never had good luck with those, but maybe I'll try them again after reading alot of the great posts here.
Yenen is still holding the line, as well. I'm very wary of a flanking move to take Kungchang or a flank move around Yenen itself. I'm taking moves to prevent this stuff. I'd say more, but it's classified[:D].
RE: strategy frontline in china
ORIGINAL: AirGriff
Moses
I can't remember how many Jap divisions he had at Changsa. The first attack in December was only a division or two with some supporting units. I'm sure I surprised the crap out of him with all my units there. He came back again I believe shortly after I pushed him out the first time--probably thought he just needed a little extra oomph. No dice, I worked him over very well. He probably didn't give his original units time to recoup. The third time came roughly in the third week in Jan. '42. This time he was serious, with I think 4 or so divisions and a fair amount of support. Unfortunately for him, by now my troops had recouped, reinforced and built up fort levels to 5 and had good prep points. Pushed him out within a few days. Great fun. I didn't do a shock attack, though. I've never had good luck with those, but maybe I'll try them again after reading alot of the great posts here.
[&:]
Sorry, bit this can't really be considered that serious of an effort. You can get 17 divisions and several brigades there by later December if you want. Trying with only 4 divisions in mid-January will lead to stalemate quickly for Japan. To win as Japan, you must maximize your strength at the point of attack, at the expense of other points along the front.
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I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: strategy frontline in china
Hmmmm. Well, if that's the case it raises a question in my mind that's been nagging at me through most of the game's January. Just where are all those troops? There are now 22 units in that city just to the east of Changsa--can't remember the name. I believe that includes the total 8 or so units he threw at Changsa the last attack. Perhaps he was saving them for the breakthrough. He's a pretty good player in my opinion, so I wonder if he's up to something more sinister. How big a deal is it to transfer units from China to other regions?
RE: strategy frontline in china
Hit the ZOC key "w" I think and see if anything has moved toward Hanoi. The only place they can go is Malaysia enroute to Burma/India or to Russia. If Russia they should have attacked already. Hopefully you've had those guys building forts.
Probably he just did not expect you to defend Changsa. So many players just give it up that Japanese players get away with 4 Divisions taking the city. A forth attack on Changsa just seems to humiliating. I would guess Yenan.
Probably he just did not expect you to defend Changsa. So many players just give it up that Japanese players get away with 4 Divisions taking the city. A forth attack on Changsa just seems to humiliating. I would guess Yenan.
RE: strategy frontline in china
You should be able to hold China now. It's too early to go on the attack however. Just let your units rest and build up strength.
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I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: strategy frontline in china
Well, if he moved anyone to Hanoi it was over the water. He still hasn't kicked my guys off the rail line over there (hope I'm remembering the map right), but I'll check that out with some recon flights. Possibly a flanking move north around Yenen. He seems interestingly disinterested in China. Makes me ponder my defenses in India and elsewhere. Or maybe he's doing an end around up north.