Matrix Games Forums

Battle Academy is now available on SteamPlayers compare Ageods Civil War to Civil War IIDeal of the week - An updated War in the East goes half Price!Sign up for the Qvadriga beta for iPad and Android!Come and say hi at Pax and SaluteLegends of War goes on sale!Piercing Fortress Europa Gets UpdatedBattle Academy Mega Pack is now availableClose Combat: Gateway to Caen Teaser TrailerDeal of the Week Alea Jacta Est
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases'

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 1/27/2014 4:58:15 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 788
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: online
This is one idea I've had floating around for a while now - thought I would post it here to get some opinions if you guys think its workable or any issues you can see.

Before I start, I have no idea if anyone has done/proposed something like this before, so if they have I do apologize - I did not find anything through the searches, so if this is the case then please let me know as I'd love to see an actual implementation!

The idea is something I plan to eventually implement into the full campaign HDM scenarios when I eventually get around to making them. In the meantime, if anyone wishes to use anything here - please feel free, part of why I posted this is just that.

So, with all that out of the way, what is the idea?
Basically, it is an attempt to counteract the lack of flexibility the allies face in terms of production, by using the one 'currency' they do have - Political Points. This represents the ability for the militarily leadership to exert some pull to get more airframes, reserves released, etc. This is similar to the way these points are used to free up LCUs from the West Coast, change leaders, etc. and so is in my opinion a rather elegant solution.

How is this done? The easiest way to demonstrate is this completely impromptu mockup I made based on Scenario 1.


The first part is the addition of 5 bases into the off-map section of the West Coast. These are completely isolated, and therefore the LCU's and airgroups based there cannot be moved anywhere. There is one base for the USAAF, one for the USN/USMC (since they use mostly the same airframes), one for the British, one for the rest of the Commonwealth, and one for the other 'minor' (airforce wise) nations, such as China, the Netherlands, and French forces in the Pacific.



There bases are distinctively titled, with their names surrounded by round brackets. This means they are easy to find at the top of the bases list. Here we will look at the USAAF base (I only filled out a few of them).



This is a list of units at this base at the moment. As the game continues, more units would arrive with newer airframes for 'purchase'. Typically they would fall into 3 groups, in order of increasing cost - 'reserves' which represent aircraft pulled out of mothball or training groups as a stopgap, 'extras' representing more of an airframe already in production, and 'diverts' representing aircraft diverted from the ETO that may not be in production at the time or at all (P-40F?). The /1, /2, etc. represent repeats of a group, and these will typically get progressively more expensive (acquiring 20 more P-40s might not be that hard, but by the time you're asking for the 60th...). Here I will look at the P-36A Reserve group.



The thing to note here that it is an entirely regular airgroup, statically restricted. It could also be used for training, though this should be subject to HR's as this could potentially give the Allied player a MASSIVE on-map training program. The groups will also come with pilots, so in addition the the airframes you get an injection of pilots of varying quality.

The thing to note is that the commander is a CPT 120PP Release ('he' had to have a rank..). This is the trick to how this works. These are commanders given PP change values representing the value of the squadron (capped at 255 sadly).



To 'purchase' the squadron, the Allied player changes the commander to an existing one. Here he is being replaced by Colonel P.E. Tron, for 127 points. The '120PP Release' commander is actually set to arrive in '47, and so will not show up even in other airgroups or divided units as a result of 'random' commander assignment. He is effectively gone for the rest of the game.



After this is done, the Allied player 'disbands' the airgroup, releasing the pilots, airframes AND the newly assigned commander (Colonel Tron) to the pool. As there is no point to rebuilding these squadrons, the player should choose 'no' when asked the 'rebuild in 120 days' prompt to avoid clutter.



The end result? 24 new P-36A's ready for deployment! A reserve group like this is a cheap way to acquire airframes to fill out west coast / on-map training groups to free up the better airframes for combat, whereas the more expensive 'extra' and 'divert' squadrons are typically front-line aircraft anyway.

Obviously, this entire process is reliant on the players trusting each other not to just 'disband' the squadrons without paying the costs, though of course the option to do so actually opens up some nice HR options, such as allowing this to be done to a certain number of groups if somewhere important like Hawaii or Australia is invaded. I don't see the trust issue as a problem as it is really no different to many HR's such as the 'PPs to cross borders' one.

There are a few other issues I forsee, such as the ever increasing amount of airgroups cluttering the airfield (I can't set them to withdraw otherwise the disband does not work as desired), and the fact that since the 'price' will be fixed throughout the game, a 1944 frontline 'extra' squadron will be just as expensive as an at that point obsolete 1942 'extra' frontline squadron. Then again, I suppose most of the 'extras' will be in '42 and '43, while the later war years will feature more 'diverts', such as getting P-51s or B-17s in theatre sooner/as needed.

It would also be really nice to be able to stand the squadrons down properly - setting them to 'train' and 0% in the editor defaults to 30% training, instead of stood down. 1% training is the best compromise I could find.

Thoughts and comments very welcome!
Juan

< Message edited by JuanG -- 1/27/2014 6:22:51 PM >


_____________________________


Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios
Post #: 1
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 1/27/2014 5:44:33 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1835
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline
Wow Juan, you've put a lot of thought into this, well done! A couple of quick comments. First and foremost, I wouldn't include pilots... yes you need one "pilot", the "CO" but other units enter the game without enough (although rare) and thus I think the engine would allow for this. An aspect here is you don't want to flood the game with pilots, that pipeline should be relatively fixed. If you want experienced pilots, maybe there would be some way to "buy" them as well, otherwise you get your in-house vets or rookies. Second, I see no way to "advance" production dates in your model. One of the key variables is for a player to emphasize on a particular airframe such that its production timeline might be impacted in a favorable direction. How would you do that? Also the cost to getting aircraft is the cost of the the CO involved in later models would cost more (paying that PP cost). This cost should be increased proportionally as the years and models advance. As the cost of a "CO" is really very arbitrary (in this case at least) then it would be doable. Finally there should be a reassessment of how many PPs an Allied player gets per turn, as there are so many things to do and so little time!!! Just some random thoughts. Hal

(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 2
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 1/27/2014 5:50:06 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14110
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
Interesting!

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/site/staffmonkeys/

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 3
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 1/27/2014 6:17:23 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 788
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Wow Juan, you've put a lot of thought into this, well done! A couple of quick comments. First and foremost, I wouldn't include pilots... yes you need one "pilot", the "CO" but other units enter the game without enough (although rare) and thus I think the engine would allow for this. An aspect here is you don't want to flood the game with pilots, that pipeline should be relatively fixed. If you want experienced pilots, maybe there would be some way to "buy" them as well, otherwise you get your in-house vets or rookies. Second, I see no way to "advance" production dates in your model. One of the key variables is for a player to emphasize on a particular airframe such that its production timeline might be impacted in a favorable direction. How would you do that? Also the cost to getting aircraft is the cost of the the CO involved in later models would cost more (paying that PP cost). This cost should be increased proportionally as the years and models advance. As the cost of a "CO" is really very arbitrary (in this case at least) then it would be doable. Finally there should be a reassessment of how many PPs an Allied player gets per turn, as there are so many things to do and so little time!!! Just some random thoughts. Hal


Im not sure how to have the units arrive with less pilots - if there is a way then I would certainly consider it. Likewise, if I can do units with pilots but no planes then buyable pilot 'cadres' would be kind of interesting.

I don't think there is a way to bring airframes forward properly - the 'diverted' aircraft can partially do this but I also considered 'prototype' or 'early' groups, arriving a few months before the main production arrives (which for a lot of aircraft was a few months after production started for the Pacific) for a higher cost. The issue here is that the cap of 255PPs means these can't be all that big, which means a lot of repeats and a lot of clutter.

This is also the problem with the early models costing less - either I have to reduce the sizes so the early groups start out at 100-120PP to have room to grow, or else face the problem I described. Alternatively I could keep price the same and reduce group size (250PPs for 30 P-40E's, or 12 P-47Ds).

Yes, this would obviously be part of a PP rebalance, though obviously these should not be freebies (ie adding PP just to buy these out), they should come at the expense of something else.

Thanks for the thoughts gentlemen.

EDIT: The prices I'm throwing around are entirely arbitary, by the way. Anyone have any thoughts on how much they'd be willing to spend for certain airframes at certain times?

< Message edited by JuanG -- 1/27/2014 7:30:13 PM >


_____________________________


Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 4
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 1/30/2014 1:57:17 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2647
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline
Good idea! But defining PP "prices" and PP balancing will be a challenge...

_____________________________

Carpe Cerevisiam



WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 5
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 1/30/2014 2:20:55 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4166
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
This is really cool.

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 6
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 1/30/2014 4:01:53 PM   
General Patton


Posts: 607
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
Status: offline
JuanG, Nice idea. I the beginning of a game I typically would use my pp's to setup other units to move to hotspots, bases I want to hold. If the pp's were expanded it would make moving other units easy. How about a Unit Purchase Point system(UPP). those points build up slowly and can be used at different times. Maybe they arrive monthly. Through the reinforcement system. Just a though. hr.hal had some good points. If you build this into a scenario, let me know. I'll playtest for you.
Cheers

_____________________________

win 7, AMD A8-352M APU w/ RADEON HD GRAPHICS, 1600Mhz, 4 CORES, 6 GB RAM

"I don't like paying for the same real estate twice" General George S. Patton

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 7
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 2/1/2014 4:20:57 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
JuanG -

I am always amazed and impressed at the incredible ongoing creativity and originality represented by members of this forum.

You have, of course, a remarkable concept, and are definitely thinking out of the box.

And have also let the genie out of the bottle...!

My respect and support to you for your awesome work on our behalf.

Mac

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 2/2/2014 2:46:36 AM >


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 8
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 2/1/2014 4:41:21 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1087
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
You have, of course, a remarkable concept, and are definitely thinking out of the box.

JuanG is a remarkable person. Someone who's thoughts I always pay attention to. JWE

_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 9
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 2/1/2014 8:25:45 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5785
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Israel
Status: offline
This is a great idea!

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 10
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/14/2014 2:43:07 AM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 5433
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

This is a great idea!


+1! This is a really innovative idea. I may consider doing something similar for my mod. Thanks for posting this JuanG.

_____________________________

My WitP webpage: https://sites.google.com/site/garyswitpsite/


(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 11
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/14/2014 4:17:31 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 10496
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
+2. Really like the innovative approach Juan. Would gladly serve as a Guinea Pig for this experiment...


_____________________________



Member: Reluctant Admiral and Perfect War Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/


(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 12
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/14/2014 12:16:48 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2140
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: online
Great idea, but my question is where do the planes come from when you are talking about the UK, CW and others. The US could have found planes but not so sure about her allies.

_____________________________


(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 13
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/14/2014 2:10:51 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 788
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: online
Thanks for the feedback gentlemen.

Have been doing some brainstorming on prices and numbers, will post something in a bit to get some feedback.

As for where airframes come for the other powers? They might not, initially - its very likely the US pools will be the most used for the early war - British and CW airframes will become increasingly available as the war goes on, especially post '43, while the 'minors' will probably only get the odd unit.

As for those units that are available for the others early on, I suppose they should be notably more pricey than their US counterparts to represent how much harder it would be to arrange for the diverting/transfer of Hurricanes or Spitfires to the CBI theatre from the Med or Africa. In other cases extra airframes might be additional lend-lease aircraft, such as P-40s or Buffaloes.

_____________________________


Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 14
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/14/2014 6:24:42 PM   
Big B


Posts: 4065
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Not there! - There!
Status: offline
Great idea Juan - I'm glad to see some of the good guys are still thinking of ways we can improve the game

_____________________________

https://sites.google.com/site/bigbsshipyard/home

(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 15
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/24/2014 7:48:11 AM   
moore4807


Posts: 1035
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Blackwood NJ
Status: offline
JuanG,

I was just kicking "almost" the same idea around with John 3rd with his mod and he posted my found problem in this forum too.

1) I tend to agree the planes are the bonus and the pilots should be as horrible as you can make them or not even at all as Hal suggested.

2) Can the reserve planes be introduced from "killed" lists? if so, are the PP costs still static? Then a formula would be needed to divide the 255 PP costs by engine mounts? choosing 8 PP's per engine you would get 31.75 (32) single engine aircraft, 16 twin engine aircraft, 8 four engine aircraft...

3) Can you make convoys of planes like the Cape Town supply convoys and buy them with PP's? this way they could be nationality specific and could be directed to the respective base without need to create more off map bases. (just a thought...)

4) "In other cases extra airframes might be additional lend-lease aircraft, such as P-40s or Buffaloes." I said to John3rd that I didn't understand the aircraft given the Dutch in his mod. The Dutch were actually given castoffs and planes refused by other countries exactly like Buffalo's, and not Hurricanes and B-25C's (months ahead of release of the USA B-25C).

5) Using the Wikipedia info online - IMHO there is a slight under supply going on with the B-17D/E's in 1942. Wikipedia reports the 5th Air Force had "A peak of 168 B-17 bombers were in the Pacific theater in September 1942, with all groups converting to other types by mid-1943". what I noticed counting out the 15 replacements per month gave a total of 90 B-17E's with NO B-17D's being replaced. Along with the groups losses (estimated at 30% from all causes) that would mean 168 + 30% (or another 50)B-17 aircraft should be in the game for the USA to meet historical levels.
Currently the count in the game I came up with was 170 B-17's of all flavors by September 42.And as I pointed out 37 of them are trapped on the West Coast in "dead" squadrons for lack of replacements. This is conversational and not a flame - If I'm wrong with what I read and concluded, please forgive me - its an observation since I'm getting my tail badly whipped by J3, and trying to figure out why I didn't have these problems in prior games...


* I'm not swearing by Wikipedia, but it has plenty of citations and references that look legitimate.

Good stuff and I hope you succeed, cause I was feeling pretty lonely out here alone!

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 16
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/24/2014 12:33:27 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2647
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline
#3: Unfortunately not - the supply convoys are limited to deliver weapons like arty, vehicles, tanks etc. that can be found on the "Devices" tab in the editor - aircraft are in a seperate category.

#4 The Dutch did order numerous B-25s and received some - I quote from http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b25_23.html:

During the Second World War, the Mitchell served in fairly large numbers with the air force of the Dutch government in exile. They participated in combat both in the East Indies as well as on the European front. Following the war, they were used in a vain attempt of the Dutch to retain control of Indonesia.

On June 30, 1941, the Netherlands Purchasing Commission, acting on behalf of the Dutch government in exile in London, signed contract 71311/NA with North American Aviation for 162 B-25C aircraft under the company designation NA-90. The planes were to be delivered to the Netherlands East Indies to help deter any Japanese aggression into the region.

The first planes were to be delivered in November 1942, with the remainder being delivered by February 1943. Deliveries were to begin as soon as all 184 B-25, B-25A and B-25B aircraft on the original Mitchell order, plus all 863 B-25Cs of contract AC16070 had been delivered to the USAAF.

In July of 1941 General Carl Spaatz notified the Netherlands Purchasing Commission that three B-25s would be released to the Dutch in September for training. On August 11, Spaatz informed the Dutch that an accelerated delivery schedule had been approved, with 42 planes scheduled for delivery from March through September 1942, 36 during October and November, 72 during during December, and the last 12 planes to be delivered by February 1943. These planes were not to be equipped with the Norden bombsight, which was considered highly secret at the time and was not cleared for export. The British Mark XIV or the Sperry sight were proposed as possible alternatives, but the Dutch were not pleased with not having access to the top of the line equipment.

War came to the Dutch in the East Indies sooner than anyone expected. Following Pearl Harbor, there were pressures by the Dutch for even more rapid delivery of their Mitchells, as well as pressures by the USAAF for use of these planes by itself. However, it was ultimately concluded that the augmentation of Dutch strength in the East Indies was in America's own self-interest, and so on January 21 an emergency allocation of 60 B-25s was approved for delivery to the Netherlands East Indies Air Force (NEIAF) at Archerfield, Australia and Bangalore, India. These planes would be immediately diverted from USAAF deliveries, and would be replaced later by an equal number of planes drawn from the NA-90 contract.

These planes were delivered equipped with Norden bombsights, since the Sperry alternates were not available and the B-25 had been produced to accommodate the Norden. The time and effort to refit the planes for the Sperry sight would have caused unacceptable delays in deliveries, and the US government somewhat reluctantly approved the inclusion of the Norden in the Dutch planes.

On January 28, 1942, the US Ferry Command was ordered to arrange for transport of these sixty planes. The Consolidated Aircraft Corporation through its subsidiary Consairways was contracted to ferry eight planes in February, 16 in March and from then on 15 to 32 per month until the delivery was complete.

In February, the British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) agreed to ferry 20 of the Dutch B-25s from Florida to Australia via Africa and India, and an additional ten via the South Pacific route from California.

During March, five of the airplanes on the Dutch order had reached Bangalore, India and 12 had reached Archerfield in Australia.

Unfortunately, these planes were too late to help stem the Japanese advance, and the Netherlands East Indies capitulated to the Japanese on March 9. The United States government no longer recognized the NEIAF as an independent fighting force.

The B-25s in India (NEIAF serials N5-139, N5-143, N5-144, N5-145, and N5-148) were requisitioned by the RAF and were modified to photographic reconnaissance configuration. Two of them were assigned RAF numbers MA956 and MA957, but the other three retained their NEI numbers of N5-144, 145, and 145. All were eventually assigned to No 681 Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron in India.

It was agreed that the B-25s in Australia would be used as the nucleus of a new squadron, designated No. 18. This squadron would be staffed jointly by Australian and Dutch aircrews plus a smattering of aircrews from other nations, but would operate at least initially under Royal Australian Air Force command. However, the B-25s of No. 18 Squadron would be painted with the Dutch national insignia (at this time a rectangular Netherlands flag) and would carry NEIAF serials.

However, the Archerfield B-25s were immediately "requisitioned" by the USAAF in the desperate attempt to halt the Japanese advance toward Port Moresby. It was agreed that the Dutch government would be credited accordingly, or else the planes would be replaced on a one-to-one basis by later deliveries. The next batch of B-25Cs were promised to the Dutch, but these too were seized by the USAAF. The first five B-25Cs delivered to this squadron had carried the NEIAF serial numbers N5-132, N5-134, N55-135, N5-136 and N5-151. In late June, another five (N5-122, N5-124, N5-125, N5-126, and N5-127) were delivered, apparently replacing the first five B-25Cs which had "disappeared" into USAAF service during the interim.

It was not until August of 1942 that No 18 Squadron finally received its "permanent" supply of Mitchells, all new deliveries from the North American factory. Although most of the crew members in No. 18 Squadron were Dutch or Australian, there were representatives of no fewer than 38 nationalities who spoke 13 different languages. No. 18 Squadron spent most of its time in training around Canberra and in antisubmarine patrols. In December of 1942, 18 Squadron moved to a new base at MacDonald in the Northern Territories.

Discounting the ten "temporary" B-25s delivered to 18 Squadron in early 1942, a total of 150 Mitchells were taken on strength by the NEIAF, 19 in 1942, 16 in 1943, 87 in 1944, and 28 in 1945. They flew bombing raids against Japanese targets in the East Indies. In 1944, the more capable B-25J Mitchell replaced most of the earlier C and D models. As the Japanese were pushed farther back, enemy targets became progressively more distant from Australian bases, and some thought was given to replacing the Mitchell in Dutch service with the longer-ranging B-24 Liberator. However this plan came to naught.

After the war, No. 18 Squadron was formally transferred from Australian to Dutch control on January 17, 1946. It became a unit of the Royal Dutch Indies Army--Army Aviation (KNIL-ML) and was part of the occupation force on Sumatra and Java that took over after the Japanese left. However, scarcely had the war ended when the Dutch B-25s were in combat yet again--this time against Indonesian rebels who wanted independence from Holland. Combat missions were flown by No. 18 Squadron with B-25s equipped with both medium bomber and with attack noses. In the post-war period several other Dutch units based in the East Indies flew B-25s. No. 16 Squadron was formed in November 1946 with 9 B-25Js. It operated from Palembang until merging with No. 18 Squadron in August 1948. A conversion school operated twelve B-25s at Piak from mid-1946 until August 1948, retraining former POWs as well as new pilots from Holland. A photographic reconnaissance unit was formed in January 1947 with five B-25s, two P-51s, and one P-40N. It merged with 18 Squadron in August of 1948. No 19 Squadron had been formed in 1944 as NEI No. 1 Transport Squadron and in August 1945 was equipped with C-47s and about twelve B-25s that had been converted into transports. It was redesignated No. 20 Squadron and operated until December 1947.




< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 3/24/2014 5:27:51 PM >


_____________________________

Carpe Cerevisiam



WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to moore4807)
Post #: 17
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/24/2014 4:22:20 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2140
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: online
One other thing to take into account, the issue with politics and releasing planes. Hawaii air command was actually forced to give up some of its B-17's to south pacific for patrol duty, this was only done when the head of the joint chiefs ordered the planes released. From what I have read in the AAF history, it was never entertained to release planes from the west coast squadrons. I think we can all agree that if things truly went south for the forces fighting in the pacific, the US might have held squadrons due to deploy to europe back to give to the pacific theater but how many and what would be the triggers would be days of arguments.

_____________________________


(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 18
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/25/2014 1:18:28 AM   
moore4807


Posts: 1035
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Blackwood NJ
Status: offline
LargeSlowTarget:

In reply to your detailed summary of the purchasing of planes by the Dutch. <grin> Mea Culpa! Your research is impressive and I'm awed, but I should have said that the actual aircraft received by the Dutch East Indies in early 1942, were British Buffalo castoffs with a smattering of bombers.

In the end the actual aircraft delivered is what should be modeled, right??? I don't want unhistorical or advanced USS Nimitz class jets... but as Oldman45 says "if things truly went south for the forces fighting in the pacific, the US might have held squadrons due to deploy to europe back to give to the pacific theater but how many and what would be the triggers would be days of arguments."

That's what made JuanG's proposal so attractive, 255PP penalty for adding fighter/bombers means using a rough average of 8PP per engine. This equals slightly larger than a fighter squadron of 25, and a BG of 12.

How to do that? What Juan started looks very good to me.


Oldman45:
I agree that European FG & BG being held back would start hundreds of arguments over who/when B U T if it was simply planes without groups it might be a little more palatable IMHO.

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 19
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/26/2014 6:05:20 AM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 5433
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

#3: Unfortunately not - the supply convoys are limited to deliver weapons like arty, vehicles, tanks etc. that can be found on the "Devices" tab in the editor - aircraft are in a seperate category.



I did a little test of this. I was able to assign airframes to a convoy and then when the convoy disbands the aircraft are placed into the pool. I was then able to add the airframes to an air group. One caveat is that when you place airframes in a convoy it appears (at least when I tried it) that you only get 1/4 of the planes you put in the editor. So in other words if you put in the editor 100 planes, when the convoy disbands you actually get 25.

_____________________________

My WitP webpage: https://sites.google.com/site/garyswitpsite/


(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 20
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/26/2014 9:15:17 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2647
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline
Now slap me silly - never scrolled far enough down in the weapons slots of a convoy to see that from slot 2000 onwards there are airframes that can be assigned. Interesting...

_____________________________

Carpe Cerevisiam



WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 21
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/26/2014 10:02:55 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9766
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

One other thing to take into account, the issue with politics and releasing planes. Hawaii air command was actually forced to give up some of its B-17's to south pacific for patrol duty, this was only done when the head of the joint chiefs ordered the planes released. From what I have read in the AAF history, it was never entertained to release planes from the west coast squadrons. I think we can all agree that if things truly went south for the forces fighting in the pacific, the US might have held squadrons due to deploy to europe back to give to the pacific theater but how many and what would be the triggers would be days of arguments.


As you indicate above...would the hypothetical held back planes intended for Europe even be allowed to deploy away from the West Coast if things truly went south?

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 22
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/27/2014 1:11:12 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 10496
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Juan:

Considering the other thread running about Allied airframe issues, would you be willing to try and import your ideas into a Babes 29c base scenario that I could then use as a springboard for my new Mod work. I am more then willing to give this concept a try.
John


_____________________________



Member: Reluctant Admiral and Perfect War Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 23
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/27/2014 4:23:42 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 788
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Juan:

Considering the other thread running about Allied airframe issues, would you be willing to try and import your ideas into a Babes 29c base scenario that I could then use as a springboard for my new Mod work. I am more then willing to give this concept a try.
John



Will do. I'll set up the 5 bases like in the original example and put one 'example' airgroup in along with its leader.

_____________________________


Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 24
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/27/2014 1:34:22 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1087
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
Now slap me silly - never scrolled far enough down in the weapons slots of a convoy to see that from slot 2000 onwards there are airframes that can be assigned. Interesting...

Yepperino !! If one adds 2000 to the slot number of an airplane, it can become a "device". A B-17E device is 2285

_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 25
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/28/2014 2:53:45 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5459
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
Juan,

I can tell you that this will work. I've been doing something similar to this in my mod. I never thought to create new off-map bases like you did though. I was using Port Stanley for the purpose and putting all of the convoys there. Your solution is far better.

I also have not been able to get planes to arrive without pilots, what I do is set the exp of the groups to 10. That basically puts the pilots to the trash bin.

I also had not come up with your idea of using created leaders to force the PP expenditure. Brilliant. I was using an outboard system to keep track of the expenditures and using VP's instead.

This looks really good and you've taken it really far. When are you going to be able to post the pwhex file for us?

Brilliant work!



_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 26
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/28/2014 4:02:01 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 788
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Juan,

I can tell you that this will work. I've been doing something similar to this in my mod. I never thought to create new off-map bases like you did though. I was using Port Stanley for the purpose and putting all of the convoys there. Your solution is far better.

I also have not been able to get planes to arrive without pilots, what I do is set the exp of the groups to 10. That basically puts the pilots to the trash bin.

I also had not come up with your idea of using created leaders to force the PP expenditure. Brilliant. I was using an outboard system to keep track of the expenditures and using VP's instead.

This looks really good and you've taken it really far. When are you going to be able to post the pwhex file for us?

Brilliant work!




Should have this ready in a few hours - the best bit is that it actually does not require pwhex changes. The only things needed are the appropriate additions to the locations file (for the bases themselves) as well as the changed map artwork. The only downside to this approach appears to be that one cannot directly click on the bases on the map and must instead use the airgroups menu. Not a big deal in my opinion.

Now, technically one could flip these hexes in the pwhex to be part of some offmap area, but the few experiments I ran with this didn't work out so well and in most cases allowed the aircraft to transfer somewhere, etc. which is undesirable.

_____________________________


Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 27
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/28/2014 4:09:29 AM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 5433
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Juan,

I can tell you that this will work. I've been doing something similar to this in my mod. I never thought to create new off-map bases like you did though. I was using Port Stanley for the purpose and putting all of the convoys there. Your solution is far better.

I also have not been able to get planes to arrive without pilots, what I do is set the exp of the groups to 10. That basically puts the pilots to the trash bin.

I also had not come up with your idea of using created leaders to force the PP expenditure. Brilliant. I was using an outboard system to keep track of the expenditures and using VP's instead.

This looks really good and you've taken it really far. When are you going to be able to post the pwhex file for us?

Brilliant work!




Should have this ready in a few hours - the best bit is that it actually does not require pwhex changes. The only things needed are the appropriate additions to the locations file (for the bases themselves) as well as the changed map artwork. The only downside to this approach appears to be that one cannot directly click on the bases on the map and must instead use the airgroups menu. Not a big deal in my opinion.

Now, technically one could flip these hexes in the pwhex to be part of some offmap area, but the few experiments I ran with this didn't work out so well and in most cases allowed the aircraft to transfer somewhere, etc. which is undesirable.


If you hover the mouse over the off map bases will it at least show what groups are there? Or is the air groups menu the only way to access this info?

_____________________________

My WitP webpage: https://sites.google.com/site/garyswitpsite/


(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 28
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/28/2014 4:11:02 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5459
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG

... but the few experiments I ran with this didn't work out so well and in most cases allowed the aircraft to transfer somewhere, etc. which is undesirable.

Ahh, that makes sense. It is part of what makes Port Stanley for me so-so. I like your solution better because I think I can get it to work for an AI game. Yes, it will require me to play a turn as the "AI" to cut lose some of the reinforcements, but that is ok for me. I do that periodically in my games anyway to help it out of ruts.

Looking forward to the files and being able to "play" with them.

THANKS!!! Just a great job here ....

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 29
RE: Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' - 3/28/2014 4:11:12 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 788
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Juan,

I can tell you that this will work. I've been doing something similar to this in my mod. I never thought to create new off-map bases like you did though. I was using Port Stanley for the purpose and putting all of the convoys there. Your solution is far better.

I also have not been able to get planes to arrive without pilots, what I do is set the exp of the groups to 10. That basically puts the pilots to the trash bin.

I also had not come up with your idea of using created leaders to force the PP expenditure. Brilliant. I was using an outboard system to keep track of the expenditures and using VP's instead.

This looks really good and you've taken it really far. When are you going to be able to post the pwhex file for us?

Brilliant work!




Should have this ready in a few hours - the best bit is that it actually does not require pwhex changes. The only things needed are the appropriate additions to the locations file (for the bases themselves) as well as the changed map artwork. The only downside to this approach appears to be that one cannot directly click on the bases on the map and must instead use the airgroups menu. Not a big deal in my opinion.

Now, technically one could flip these hexes in the pwhex to be part of some offmap area, but the few experiments I ran with this didn't work out so well and in most cases allowed the aircraft to transfer somewhere, etc. which is undesirable.


If you hover the mouse over the off map bases will it at least show what groups are there? Or is the air groups menu the only way to access this info?


Yes, it will. You just have to use the bases/airgroups menus to access them.

_____________________________


Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to Gary Childress)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Concept - Allied Aircraft 'Purchases' Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.109