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Total Fail - 3/5/2012 6:43:40 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6201
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.

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"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law
Post #: 1
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 6:54:04 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2451
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline 		The problem has always been that the engine ignores sensor capabilites and strictly uses the number of weapons to determine kill probability

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 6:54:06 PM   
henry1611

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline 		I had a similarly frustrating experience as the Allies with Downfall. I kept losing sub after sub.

I opened up the scenario in the Scenario Editor, made the changes to the E Class suggested in this thread (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2741177) and said "Yes" when I opened up the save game, thereby incorporating the database changes into my on-going game. I noticed an immediate difference for the better and did not notice any problems with updating an on-going game.

May be worth a look.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 3
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 7:34:19 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9033
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Back in my AAR with Miller ("Shattered Vow"), this kind of stuff prompted me to go back and look at the number of USN subs sunk throughout the war.  I forget the exact number - I think it was in the 90s - so in the first half of '44 you've lost roughly half the number that the United States lost in the entire war (and I think that included the Atlantic!).  Of course, this is whacked out.  It has prompted a number of Allied players to switch the uses of USN subs to mainly serving as a picket line in deep water and for mining.

(in reply to henry1611)
Post #: 4
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 7:42:33 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1174
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
The problem has always been that the engine ignores sensor capabilites and strictly uses the number of weapons to determine kill probability



Which is totally a SOP to the JFB crowd. Someone should do a mod that allows the US to load 10,000 depth charges on a liberty ship with 20 K-guns to a side. See how the JFB's like facing an escort with an ASW rating of 250.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 5
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 7:46:15 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6201
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
The problem has always been that the engine ignores sensor capabilites and strictly uses the number of weapons to determine kill probability





Which is totally a SOP to the JFB crowd. Someone should do a mod that allows the US to load 10,000 depth charges on a liberty ship with 20 K-guns to a side. See how the JFB's like facing an escort with an ASW rating of 250.



Well, I have no problem with Allied ASW. I have pretty much neutralized the Japanese sub force in 44. But I expected that. Can anyone say that that should not be the case? In fact although there are quite a few things about the sub game that I am not happy with, if this one thing was fixed I would shut up. (mostly ) But this thing just stinks...I mean really stinks.

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 6
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 7:48:50 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14861
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.


[irritating JFB mode on/] Ha! Perhaps you bad Admiral, dogface GI! Japanese sailors kill many subs! Japanese sailors superior in all ways! You die, Yankee sailor dog! [/irritating JFB mode off]

_____________________________


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 7
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 7:55:04 PM   
LST Express


Posts: 502
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		It's May 45 in my pbem and I'm afraid to go count the number of subs I've lost. But I figure there are things my opponent might not be too happy about either so I just drive on.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 8
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 7:57:40 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14861
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Can anyone say that that should not be the case?


Yes. I can say that.

I don't mean it, but I can say it just to get your dander up.



_____________________________


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 9
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 8:05:34 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6201
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Back in my AAR with Miller ("Shattered Vow"), this kind of stuff prompted me to go back and look at the number of USN subs sunk throughout the war.  I forget the exact number - I think it was in the 90s - so in the first half of '44 you've lost roughly half the number that the United States lost in the entire war (and I think that included the Atlantic!).  Of course, this is whacked out.  It has prompted a number of Allied players to switch the uses of USN subs to mainly serving as a picket line in deep water and for mining.


Averaged about one a month for the whole war. I think only three to ASW in all of 42.


_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 8:07:49 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6201
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.


[irritating JFB mode on/] Ha! Perhaps you bad Admiral, dogface GI! Japanese sailors kill many subs! Japanese sailors superior in all ways! You die, Yankee sailor dog! [/irritating JFB mode off]


You can always count on the Poultry man to rub salt in a wound...


_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 11
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 9:00:03 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6188
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Back in my AAR with Miller ("Shattered Vow"), this kind of stuff prompted me to go back and look at the number of USN subs sunk throughout the war.  I forget the exact number - I think it was in the 90s - .


You're off by almost 100%.



_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 9:12:18 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 2420
Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Back in my AAR with Miller ("Shattered Vow"), this kind of stuff prompted me to go back and look at the number of USN subs sunk throughout the war.  I forget the exact number - I think it was in the 90s - .


You're off by almost 100%.




I believe it was 52 Subs lost to all causes. Right?

_____________________________

This is one Czech that doesn't bounce.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 13
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 9:28:39 PM   
Treetop64


Posts: 722
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City, CA - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.


[irritating JFB mode on/] Ha! Perhaps you bad Admiral, dogface GI! Japanese sailors kill many subs! Japanese sailors superior in all ways! You die, Yankee sailor dog! [/irritating JFB mode off]


I am laugh!

_____________________________



"Junk is something you've kept for years and throw away three weeks before you need it"

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 14
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 10:01:13 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

this kind of stuff prompted me to go back and look at the number of USN subs sunk throughout the war. I forget the exact number - I think it was in the 90s -


52 American submarines were lost during the entire war on all global fronts, including those lost to grounding, collisions, and training accidents. He's lost more US subs in a month than the Japanese sank during the entire war.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Treetop64)
Post #: 15
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 10:25:47 PM   
RisingSun


Posts: 502
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.


Are you using any mod or just plain vanilla scenario?

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 16
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 10:34:40 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 623
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		I have a picture of the plaque at the US Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland showing submarines lost during WWII, but it is too large to attach, and I am too lazy at the moment to re-size it.

Fifty two submarines lost in the entire war from all causes is correct. Sometimes the game gets it close, and sometimes it goes off on a wild tangent that in no way approximates what actually happened. I like to have a bit of reality mixed in with a good deal of "it could have been possible" play. Otherwise, it would be quite a long, boring, game.

Your losses are outside the realm of possibility, I would say. DaBabes scenarios help to restore some sense of normalcy here, but, of course, that is no help to you and all the time you have spent on your game.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 17
RE: Total Fail - 3/5/2012 11:07:28 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6201
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.


Are you using any mod or just plain vanilla scenario?


Stock, scen #2 so I expect there are more than in scen #1. Still, one of those bastards is too many....

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to RisingSun)
Post #: 18
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 1:24:07 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1531
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		Sub warware is much better in AE than in stock

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 19
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 7:25:32 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 11998
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.



solution = DaBabes or Babeslite brings it to a more realistic stage. Vanilla is more like Kriegsmarine in the Pacific with the USN subs acting as the Uboats with the well known outcome...

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/6/2012 7:28:00 AM >

_____________________________


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Post #: 20
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 12:58:50 PM   
USS America


Posts: 15080
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Just starting a PBEM match using Nik's May 1942 start. The scenario already includes toned down Uber E's. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 21
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 1:50:12 PM   
lb4269


Posts: 158
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline 		A book that might interest:




It's the story of the 52 lost subs.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by lb4269 -- 3/6/2012 1:52:03 PM >

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 22
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 4:46:09 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5493
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline 		"Super E" problem was the number of DC throwers bundled together in one ship. DaBabes solved that by splitting the weapons to different groups and problem was solved.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to lb4269)
Post #: 23
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 4:49:46 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4714
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

42 Allied subs sunk in the first half of 1944. Nine in the last 20 days! Eight of the nine have gone down to the super E type escort which have accounted for about 75% of the total. It is bad enough that my subs are not really that effective in the first place but it just totally escapes me why this total craptacular fantasy has not been addressed. I have to sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging by these wonderful Japanese ships.

There. I have had my rant.


[irritating JFB mode on/] Ha! Perhaps you bad Admiral, dogface GI! Japanese sailors kill many subs! Japanese sailors superior in all ways! You die, Yankee sailor dog! [/irritating JFB mode off]



_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 24
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 4:51:44 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4714
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Just starting a PBEM match using Nik's May 1942 start. The scenario already includes toned down Uber E's. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Will no help you, dogface sailor GI!

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 25
RE: Total Fail - 3/6/2012 9:41:55 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6201
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

"Super E" problem was the number of DC throwers bundled together in one ship. DaBabes solved that by splitting the weapons to different groups and problem was solved.



Which sounds appealing but is of no help to those of us who are two years into a stock campaign game and look to be at it for another year or two. Ark and I started our game within weeks of AE coming out and have been through a lot of bugs and great fixes since then. Just really don't know why this one never got addressed.

Of course, as the Japanese player he may not be so disenchanted with the super E boat........

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

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Post #: 26
RE: Total Fail - 3/7/2012 12:28:54 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		have you considered options you might pursue, that might be better than just passively watching your fleet-boats get tagged 1by1, while they continue to execute their current orders? i can think of several:

a) expand patrol-zones, give each subTF a 3rd faraway hex, hoping to reduce their DLs.
b) coalesce patrol-zones, flood some hexes w/ many subTFs, attempt to sink uber-Es that've expended their ammo.
c) change fleet-boat strategic role from 'commerce-destroyer' to 'scout-picket'.
d) concentrate sub use in areas under the edges of your air-umbrella.
e) use penetrating CL/DD raids to attack IJN convoys & attrit their escorts.
f) increase air-ops against ASW search-planes and their bases/tenders.

when the enemy ASW capability surges, you're not req'd to continue your previous subTF tactics. you can explore ways to use all your assets differently. if you're no longer having 'happy time' w/ tactics that worked well in the previous game-year, ain't it down to you to revise your deployments to counter or avoid the enemy's new-found strength? don't continue to use old methods in the face of high losses, try something else.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 27
RE: Total Fail - 3/7/2012 12:58:09 AM   
aoffen

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 6/7/2002
From: Brisvegas, Australia
Status: offline 		All of that is true, but I think the beef is more about the a-historical nature of the problem.
Regards
Andrew

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 28
RE: Total Fail - 3/7/2012 4:37:40 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		no doubt, but this is an a-historical game. where if my subs were getting clammered for 3-4 weeks straight, it might eventually drill thru that, 'hey, i'm getting creamed here'. and 'mebbe i should withdraw/re-think/re-organize'. but no, the OP would rather "sit while my subs undergo round after endless round of depth charging".

srsly, if under threat, will you let a major component of your fleet get ruined, w/o trying to figure out a counter-tactic, or at least by getting out of the way of stuff that's causing you major hurt?

i've no call to beat on the OP, his game-experience likely outweighs mine. but jeez-louise, mebbe he could try & do something? 'cos just posting a moan about how he got raped by the super-Es ain't gonna draw much sympathy.

(in reply to aoffen)
Post #: 29
RE: Total Fail - 3/7/2012 5:23:22 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9081
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I've always considered ASW too dangerous/effective. This was one of the chief reasons we shifted Reluctant Admiral over to Da Babes format. MUCHO Better!


_____________________________



Member: Reluctant Admiral and Perfect War Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/


(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 30
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