taking all of France

[LLv34Mika]

Hi

has anyone tried refusing the Vichy truce offer in a pbem game? I wonder how that works out. I only tried it offline to see if there is any and how much reaction from the USA and USSR. I noticed only a little reaction from the US and no reaction at all from Stalin. The only thing I noticed was the French morale bonus as they vowed to continue fighting. I wonder how long it takes for a human player to get the Algier. With high supply for the French and tricky terrain it could be a dangerous operation.

Any experience with that? Conclusions?
Thanx in advance!

[sillyflower]

1 of my opponents did it, but came to regret it. Hoc facinus omina bellum ignoscere

[PvtBenjamin]

The decision to not accept Vichy can be a large benefit or an unmitigated disaster depending on your play and the play of your opponent.


Once Axis refuses Vichy the French get a full str Army (+1 exp), HQ, Tac Bomber & Fighter (manual says 2 tac bombers but I think one may be a fighter) in Algiers. I think morale goes back to 100% (at least increases a lot). Probably the most effective way for the Axis to beat the French is taking Tunis with port and move west with a large air deployment. The Axis will eventually win but it can be very costly and considerable time.

Benefits of not accepting Vichy and taking Algiers:

1) Axis controls all of Northern Africa to Egypt & Gets Syria. A seasoned player won't allow Syria to stay in Axis hands with the fall of Algiers.

2) Spain Diplomacy is an important result of not accepting Vichy. Read DE 603 "Germany entices Franco" to get the full understanding.

3) Ability to attack Gibraltar.

Negatives:

Its costly (can be very costly) and can take considerable time. This can GREATLY hinder the attack of the USSR.

Remember the Brits can send resources to help and French can send remaining troops in France. The Axis needs full air support to quickly beat Algiers so Sealion is very unlikely at that time.

gl

[Zuxius]

I tried it with the computer.

I found it as time consuming as a Sealion right after France.

The Good:

You get all of France's MPP (once the job is done)
It appears Spain just hands itself over to you (but with a serious donation: 800MPP)
You'll be better ready to fight in Afrika (because you'll have been sending forces to the region)
In the end, you'll get to plunder France
Gibraltar (yeah, that's a biggy coming with Spain)

The Bad:

1941 Barbarossa will be botched because your forces will be underwhelming
Certain Mines and towns in Spain will require a garrison presence (more likely weak Spanish Corps)
Now there are more Invasion Zones than ever to repel
The more minors you pick-up, the more it seems you poor cash into their expensive armies vs. German cheaper ones

I think the key is to have a game plan to take all the key places the French capitol will run to. This would allow things to end abruptly instead of chasing around here and there. Perhaps it would be a good idea for the Italians to be ready to take Algiers. Perhaps have them research amphibious and be ready to take the far off spot in the desert while the Germans chew up all the other alternatives. This would be something you plan at the attack on Poland, and see fruition at the taking of Paris. Set up a hotseat game and play it out with yourself. I'd be curious as to how it can be done.

[KorutZelva]

Necromancer! [;)]

There's going to be a bit of a better pay-off for 'All of France' with the future patch that will slap a US readiness penalty for Axis declaring war on Algeria.

[Ktonos]

Is it a DoW vs Algeria if you go "All of France"? I think it would just be a continuation of the invasion of France and no declaration of war vs Algeria would be needed.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

Is it a DoW vs Algeria if you go "All of France"? I think it would just be a continuation of the invasion of France and no declaration of war vs Algeria would be needed.

That's what I'm saying. With all of France, you'd dodge the penalty.

[PvtBenjamin]

So there are two options for the Axis

1) Not take Paris and continue to Algiers

2) Reject Vichy and take Algiers (DE 602)

What are the implications for Spain of each. DE 602 says military concessions to Spain, remind me what that is specifically.

[Harun]

I just tried this, too, against the AI and somehow got the French units to head over to Tunis (perhaps to fight the Italians?)

So my German amphib unit just landed and walked in. (maybe there was a weak unit? It was so easy I forget. A human wouldn't do that.)

[LordOfPants]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin
What are the implications for Spain of each. DE 602 says military concessions to Spain, remind me what that is specifically.

Event DE 603 triggers when Spain is at least 30% pro-axis, Italy has joined the war, France and Algiers are Axis controlled, all allied units are cleared from France and Algiers, and there is German unit near Algiers. It gives you the option to pay 800 MPPs and have Spain to join the war. The 'military concessions' in 602 is referring to the payment you make in event 603. So if you bypass Paris and take Algiers, you won't get Spain until you come back and take Paris or manage to get France to surrender without taking paris.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: LordOfPants

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin
What are the implications for Spain of each. DE 602 says military concessions to Spain, remind me what that is specifically.

Event DE 603 triggers when Spain is at least 30% pro-axis, Italy has joined the war, France and Algiers are Axis controlled, all allied units are cleared from France and Algiers, and there is German unit near Algiers. It gives you the option to pay 800 MPPs and have Spain to join the war. The 'military concessions' in 602 is referring to the payment you make in event 603. So if you bypass Paris and take Algiers, you won't get Spain until you come back and take Paris or manage to get France to surrender without taking paris.

Thank you. I'm very familiar with 603, Spain Dilpo is actually now 60%. My question is the specifics of "military concessions" in DE 602.

1) So DE 602 (no Vichy) Spanish "military concessions" are the same as DE 603?

2) What happens to Spain if the Axis wait to take Paris (no De 602/ Vichy decision ) until after they take Algiers?

[LordOfPants]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin
Thank you. I'm very familiar with 603, Spain Dilpo is actually now 60%. My question is the specifics of "military concessions" in DE 602.

1) So DE 602 (no Vichy) Spanish "military concessions" are the same as DE 603?

2) What happens to Spain if the Axis wait to take Paris (no De 602/ Vichy decision ) until after they take Algiers?

I'm pretty sure that the "Military concessions" in 602 is just text in the description letting you know that you can get 603. I'm not an expert on the scripting language, but I don't see anything in 603 that looks for 602 having fired, anything in 602 that triggers 603, or anything in 603 checking for anything about Vichy. I'm looking on the live version of the file and not the beta though.

[Sugar]

I guess I know what PvtBenjamin: it's possible to not occupy Paris until the same turn Algier is occupied; thereby avoiding the additional morale bonus for the Frenchmen in case of denying Vichy. In this case France will surrender immediately without moving the capital to Bordaux.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

I guess I know what PvtBenjamin: it's possible to not occupy Paris until the same turn Algier is occupied; thereby avoiding the additional morale bonus for the Frenchmen in case of denying Vichy. In this case France will surrender immediately without moving the capital to Bordaux.

Thank You. I understand that. I'm probably not being clear.

My questions are:

1) Spanish Diplomacy effect in the case of Axis taking Paris (or French morale 0) & Algiers simultaneously

2) Spanish Diplomacy effect if Axis rejects Vichy and then takes Algiers (DE 602). Is there the same parameters as DE 603 thus Spain Diplo needs to be +60% Axis for Spain to enter war. LordoPants seems to think so.

[elxaime]

It happened in one of my PBEM. I managed to stall my Axis opponent from taking Algiers in a very exciting close fought contest. Then my opponent stopping sending in turns and disappeared without a word.

That so far has been my biggest disappointment in PBEM. I like playing Allies and it is easy to find Axis opponents. Usually I am losing, sometimes very badly, but I am also learning along the way from some very good players. The Axis, with few exceptions, almost always do a maximum approach of swamping you early.

Unfortunately, the times I have weathered this, my Axis opponent - presumably because their high risk ploys failed and the "fun" part is over for them - head for the tall grass, never to be seen again. It sort of sours you on PBEM.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: elxaime

It happened in one of my PBEM. I managed to stall my Axis opponent from taking Algiers in a very exciting close fought contest. Then my opponent stopping sending in turns and disappeared without a word.

That so far has been my biggest disappointment in PBEM. I like playing Allies and it is easy to find Axis opponents. Usually I am losing, sometimes very badly, but I am also learning along the way from some very good players. The Axis, with few exceptions, almost always do a maximum approach of swamping you early.

Unfortunately, the times I have weathered this, my Axis opponent - presumably because their high risk ploys failed and the "fun" part is over for them - head for the tall grass, never to be seen again. It sort of sours you on PBEM.

best find people to tango on the boards, that way, based on AARs and some such, you know what you're getting. [:)]