1.08.05 Beta

[chaos45]

Another issue might be doctrine as well.....read carius book long ago and only in like 1 instance did the entire Tiger BN engage in one operation and it turn out to be a failure if I remember correctly because it lacked supporting arms and failed to utilize the Tigers to their strengths which was more or less longer range sniping. From my memory of how he recounted the engagement.

More typically the Tigers were used in pairs/Platoon/Company sized elements to support other arms as a matter of standard doctrine.

Monster CV in the game I dont think should stand without combined arms, I would bet a tiger bn one on one vs an infantry bn in anything other than an open field would lose the battle. As at some point the tanks have to fall back re-arm/re-fit/re-fuel and sleep.....the security those infantry are supposed to provide while the tankers sleep and do all those things would be seriously lacking with just that Tiger BN out there all alone. Its the same principle of why Soviet tankers continued to take massive losses from german infantry even at the very end. As they would breakthrough but the infantry be pinned and lone or small groups of german infantry pick them off with panzerfausts/AT mines/explosives.

[morvael]

People like you should be part of the beta team It's my fault that I started to think too much in the game terms (CV) instead of what actual boots on the ground should mean and problems that unsupported tanks have. But it means the 7k "regiment" had certainly more boots than 5k "corps", but it's the regiment that is penalized, not the corps.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

A hex represents roughly 10 x 10 miles. You can't control 100 square miles with any of these units in particular with 18 tanks of a 41 Panzer Pioneer Battalion. If you set the unit to 50% TOE it would be just 9 tanks. This would be absolutely silly. Same goes for all the other Panzer Battalions and Brigades.


I have a huge problem with all the small units on the map. NKVD Regiments, Airborne Brigades, AT Artillery Brigades, German Security Regiments etc. They should not exert ZOC. And they should reach depleted status much earlier. Those unready NKVD regiments with 400 men should not be allowed to flip hexes.

Don't know if any of this can be changed but it's certainly not a good idea to add bad design to the German side because there already is bad design on the Russian side.

Also, this discussion just shows that it probably would be a good idea to ask for feedback in the forum BEFORE a patch is released. There are a lot of knowledgeable people in this forum (me NOT included) who could help make this a more realistic game.

[morvael]

Yeah, but we can't ask people before launching a patch as they haven't signed an NDA

[chaos45]

gotta love NDAs lol......

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Yeah, but we can't ask people before launching a patch as they haven't signed an NDA

But isn't this what you did in this thread? Or did the patch already launch and I missed it? [&:]

[morvael]

This was just a spoiler for a patch that is ready and in the pipeline to get into your hands.

[chaos45]

Blah 3rd times a charm- 2 posts ate trying to respond to bozo so keeping it short this time- about 1K+ men with a company+ combat infantry should be needed to screen a 10 mile line....so few German support units meet this criteria...BDEs pretty much all do and are fine for being on map IMO....Soviet artillery at 30+ tubes is on map.....so Germans should be to and im fine if that change was put in.

[charlie0311]

Deleted, "fun fail"

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: elxaime

ORIGINAL: morvael

Trying to recover a bit of strength before flame wars (ineviteable after each patch) start [:)]

For now you can ponder this:

29. Added the ability to define some combat or support OBs as multirole. This allows to convert units, using those OBs, between combat and support roles. This operation is allowed only once per turn, disabled for units performing a HQ Build Up, units attached to cities, or support units which changed their HQ this turn. Units involved may not be frozen, routed or loaded. To convert from a support unit to a combat unit, there must be free space in the hex in which the parent unit is located. To convert from a combat unit to a support unit, both units must be located in the same hex.

where the following TOEs are considered multirole:

German 42 Cavalry Squadron
German 41 Panzer Pioneer Battalion
German 42 Heavy Panzer Battalion
German 43 Sturmpanzer Battalion
German 43a Panzer Battalion
German 43b Panzer Battalion
German 43 Heavy Jagdpanzer Battalion
German 43 Heavy Panzer Battalion
German 43c Heavy Panzerjager Battalion
German 43b Heavy Panzerjager Battalion
German 43a Heavy Panzerjager Battalion
German 43 Panzer Pioneer Battalion
German 44 Nebelwerfer Brigade
German 44 Stug Brigade
German 44 Heavy Jagdpanzer Battalion
German 44 Sturmpanzer Battalion
German 44 Heavy Panzer Battalion
German 44a Stug Brigade
German 44 Volkswerfer Brigade
German 44b Stug Brigade
German 45 Jagdtiger Battalion
German 45 Nebelwerfer Brigade

Discuss [:)]

I am curious about the design philosophy behind this one. The game models small support units by incorporating them with HQs who will be the ones ordering their participation. Deploying more of them on-board as combat units seems to undercut the HQ/commander system philosophy while adding more counter-congestion. I can see the upside in adding flexibility. But it seems a close call, as one can now imagine rear areas carpeted with such battalions in a game which already has sufficient carpet management.

This is a really nice proposal, actually one of the few new features I liked in the WIW. Having said that, would it be possible to have German regimental size independent units (like the 369 or the NL SS regiment) and smaller brigades (like the SS brigades that come into play in '43), be programmed to be broken up as SU's and incorporated with divisions? I'm asking because the bulk of these units never really fought independently, but were attached to divisional size units. Ex the 369 was attached to the 100 Jaeger and died in Stalingrad with the division, while the independent SS regiments and brigades normally served with SS divisions like Viking. Presently, these regimental/brigade units are pretty weak and useless since they can only be used as garrisons or in anti partisan sweeps. If they could be broken up and join divisions as SU's we could at least give them some meaningful employment in game.

[morvael]

I wanted to have on-map regiments become multirole units as well, to compensate a bit for the lack of corps combat units on the German side (hence being unable to deploy 100k men per hex as the Soviets can). However since they don't divide into 3 parts when converted to support units, one could attach as much as 3 full regiments to a division, and Denniss rejected my proposal. And now multiroles are mod only...

I guess the proper way to do it would be to alter scenarios to transform those regiment combat units into 2-3 battalion sized support units.

[vinnie71]

Glad to know that it was at least considered and appreciate Denniss's answer on the matter. Any idea if at least the Blackshirt regiments would be turned into multi-role units? At least these could be used as garrisons since presently they cannot be attached to divisions (as they were historically).

[morvael]

There will be no multirole units at all in official WitE data (the list shown before is now invalid), though you could create a mod with them.

[vinnie71]

Then there is no way of that ever happening coz I can't programme anything to save my life! [:)]

Pity it couldn't be an option like the blizzard approach...

[chaos45]

Wish this would just drop so we could get new games started lol.......

[Commanderski]

There will be no multirole units at all in official WitE data (the list shown before is now invalid), though you could create a mod with them.

Does that mean it's something we can create in the Editor?

[morvael]

Yes.

By the way, nice avatar, Commanderski

[Denniss]

As far as I understand the multirole functionality is kept in the .exe but the previously as multirole-capable marked OBs had this marking removed.

[vinnie71]

Any chance of making this into an optional setting in the future?

[morvael]

No.