Apple apparently removing any war games with Confederate flag.

[warspite1]

My concern is the twofold;

Firstly, as said previously I think the decision when it comes to wargames is simply nonsensical.

But moreover, is the problem of where does this lead? We had the recent example of the French stopping the Belgians commemorating Waterloo on a euro coin - because it was upsetting to European sensibilities [8|]. Follow this through to its conclusion. No doubt historical Wargames will at some point be banned. You can programme a Red vs Blue game but nothing historical that depicts European vs European or European vs Colony or ....well anything..

[Chijohnaok2]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

My concern is the twofold;

Firstly, as said previously I think the decision when it comes to wargames is simply nonsensical.

But moreover, is the problem of where does this lead? We had the recent example of the French stopping the Belgians commemorating Waterloo on a euro coin - because it was upsetting to European sensibilities [8|]. Follow this through to its conclusion. No doubt historical Wargames will at some point be banned. You can programme a Red vs Blue game but nothing historical that depicts European vs European or European vs Colony or ....well anything..

Any "war" game is going to offend some peacenicks out there.

As for "European vs Colony", well then you are just an imperialist bastard seeking to exploit the poor downtrodden of the 3rd world (even if there are no geographical names used).

Even if you simply base your game on distant planetary system that no one has ever heard of you will probably piss of the Society for the Preservation of Tribbles or some such other organization.

You are right, there is potentially no end to it.

Maybe in the end, we will be left with a strategy game based on "capture the flag" (of course with the flag NOT being a Confederate flag [;)] )

[aaatoysandmore]

I'm sooo glad I am not long for this world or think that I am not. (strokes, vertigo etc. etc.) It's getting where they are trying to TAKE AWAY our forefathers given freedoms more today than ever before. You can't hardly walk or talk without some camera phone or voice recording phone in yer face.

The world feels like it's getting zombified. In that we just wander along accepting everything and not doing anything about it. It's gotten to the point of you can do this and this but you can't do that. Wear a seat belt, quit smoking, no driving and drinking, no public intoxication no walking across the street other than at the light, no whistling at pretty girls, no flirting on the job, come to a complete stop at stop signs and red lights, even cameras at red lights to take a picture of you if you don't obey the rules, use your blinker when turning and now no confederate flags in and around anything, and the list goes on an on. There was a time we could do any of these things. [8|]

[operating]

It's too bad I can't say what I really feel about liberal leaning causes like this Apple agenda to rewrite history, however the tentacles are there to do just that and I'm sure there is more to follow; To wit I feel this whole confederate flag thing is being corrupted by a few who think they are the "Holies of the Holies"...

[Kuokkanen]

So I thought you might be interested in seeing what happens when censorship goes out of control.

If ever this censorship is applied to movies made by big production companies, then lawyers of those companies go to action and raise Hell. Too bad Slitherine & co don't have sufficient assets for that [:(]


[edit]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

The world feels like it's getting zombified. In that we just wander along accepting everything and not doing anything about it. It's gotten to the point of you can do this and this but you can't do that. Wear a seat belt, quit smoking, no driving and drinking, no public intoxication no walking across the street other than at the light, no whistling at pretty girls, no flirting on the job, come to a complete stop at stop signs and red lights, even cameras at red lights to take a picture of you if you don't obey the rules, use your blinker when turning and now no confederate flags in and around anything, and the list goes on an on. There was a time we could do any of these things. [8|]

And as a result, people got hurt and killed in traffic accidents (still do when traffic laws are not obeyed) and ... Ask your female relatives have men ever whistled at them and how they feel about it.

[edit2]
I guess most likely this sort of bans are not applied to movies made by those big movie production companies and only things made by small companies will be banned.

[JWW]

Gay marriage ruling issued today by the US Supreme Court. Gay marriage now the law of the land in America. (Just for information purposes, not taking a position.) Media is now all over that. Confederate flag issue will fade from center stage for now. It was just the issue of the moment. That is how we do things in America. Media can only handle one major event at a time. Even the multiple terrorist attacks today are pretty much forgotten, though they were the media center of attention this morning, even eclipsing the Confederate flag issue, right up until the moment the gay marriage ruling was issued.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

ORIGINAL: warspite1

My concern is the twofold;

Firstly, as said previously I think the decision when it comes to wargames is simply nonsensical.

But moreover, is the problem of where does this lead? We had the recent example of the French stopping the Belgians commemorating Waterloo on a euro coin - because it was upsetting to European sensibilities [8|]. Follow this through to its conclusion. No doubt historical Wargames will at some point be banned. You can programme a Red vs Blue game but nothing historical that depicts European vs European or European vs Colony or ....well anything..

Any "war" game is going to offend some peacenicks out there.

As for "European vs Colony", well then you are just an imperialist bastard seeking to exploit the poor downtrodden of the 3rd world (even if there are no geographical names used).

Even if you simply base your game on distant planetary system that no one has ever heard of you will probably piss of the Society for the Preservation of Tribbles or some such other organization.

You are right, there is potentially no end to it.

Maybe in the end, we will be left with a strategy game based on "capture the flag" (of course with the flag NOT being a Confederate flag [;)] )

warspite1

You raise some excellent points:

....you will probably cheese off the Society for the Preservation of Tribbles or some such other organization

Yes the nimbly pimblies of splaticurn V will no doubt raise serious concerns vis-a-vis the mean-spirited way their fellow alien beings are depicted.

Maybe in the end, we will be left with a strategy game based on "capture the flag"

This in itself causes potential issues. What colour are the flags? What is the significance if a red flag defeated a blue flag in a fit of mean-spiritedness?

Come on guys, these are serious issues - I am glad our big corporations are taking this seriously......

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
Maybe in the end, we will be left with a strategy game based on "capture the flag"

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
Maybe in the end, we will be left with a strategy game based on "capture the flag"

warspite1

That is soooooo mean-spritied Aurelian [:-]


Actually I loved that game back in the day [:)]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
Maybe in the end, we will be left with a strategy game based on "capture the flag"

warspite1

That is soooooo mean-spritied Aurelian [:-]


Actually I loved that game back in the day [:)]

I did too.

Just too much "The sky is falling" hyperbole in threads like this.

[VegasOZ]

I liked the one called "Feudal" if I remember correctly. It's the one that had the 3D figures with a peg board setup. It was "chess like" and was a fun game. Anyone else remember that one?

[ezzler]

Andrew Mulholland of HexWar says "basically we need to remove prominent flags from the screenshots" and "don't have them in the app icon." The Confederate flag is okay within games, but it appears that it just needs to not be prominent at all in the forward-facing parts of the App Store.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: VegasOZ

I liked the one called "Feudal" if I remember correctly. It's the one that had the 3D figures with a peg board setup. It was "chess like" and was a fun game. Anyone else remember that one?

What is the significance if a red flag defeated a blue flag

I do I do and wish there were a computer game like it. My 2nd wife loved it too. I beat her butt (in the game fellas get your minds out of the gutter) constantly but she still loved to play it.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: VegasOZ

I liked the one called "Feudal" if I remember correctly. It's the one that had the 3D figures with a peg board setup. It was "chess like" and was a fun game. Anyone else remember that one?

Yep.

[Anthropoid]

I encourage all of you to contact the firms listed in the abcn story.

It might take an hour to cut-and-paste the draft letter included and post it to all the retailers (linked below) . . . more if you feel you need to remove portions. Time well-spent I think.

It is only when they receive several hundred (or ideally thousands) of complaints and perceive a risk of lost revenue that they will reconsider.

Walmart
https://corporate.walmart.com/contact-u ... e-feedback

Amazon.com Inc.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact- ... ?skip=true

Sears Holdings.

http://www.searsholdings.com/about/loc.htm

EBay

http://www.ebayinc.com/contact_us

Etsy

https://www.etsy.com/help/contact

Target

https://help.target.com/help/ContactUs

Spencer Gifts

http://www.spencersonline.com/content.j ... me=Contact

Revised letter

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing to you in reference to a news article posted at:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStor ... g-31976447

entitled "Retailers That Have Banned Sales of the Confederate Flag."

According to this article you are among a list of retailers who have announced that you will no longer sell the flag(s) of the Confederate States of America, nor items which bear imagery of such flags (hereinafter referred to as CSA Flag(s)).

First let me say that, I despise the Confederate States of America (CSA).
I regard the CSA as one of the most evil nations to have existed in the last 1000 years. Evil regimes like Nazi Germany brought fire and destruction to the world and provoked a World War that killed 70 to 80 million. The CSA was not nearly so successful, but the goals of that regime were not much different. Nazi Germany movement sought to eliminate all Jews and various other minority and subject peoples for various ideological and rapacious motivations; the end result was to have been a continent ruled by Nazis, populated by Nazis and devoid of anyone else in perpetuity. The CSA in contrast, had a vision of extending the odd racial "labor camp" model of the American south to as much of the Western hemisphere as they could manage. In this hate-based Empire, an entire category of people would have not simply been eradicated from the landscape, but kept in perpetual servitude and denied basic human rights and legal freedoms and protections. Had the CSA not been soundly defeated by the Union, its leaders may well have succeeded in their horrific vision. The CSA was an evil regime and everyone one of us alive today should be thankful that it was defeated and eliminated.

It is perhaps a matter of debate whether a devout Nazi was more or less exorable than was a devout Confederate. Suffice to say, I believe it is reasonable to postulate they are on comparable levels of depravity, inhumanity, cruelty and criminality. However, from my standpoint as an American citizen and resident of the U.S. I must say that my personal loathing for the CSA exceeds that of Nazi Germany. Every day of my life and every day of all or our lives in the U.S. we still deal with the legacy of racism and hatred represented in the white supremacist dehumanization of African phenotypes which the Confederacy fought to preserve.

In sum: I am no racist, and I am certainly no supporter of the CSA nor apologist for the CSA.

However, I find that your decision to, "ban" as some have said, products which bear imagery resembling the CSA flag is nearly as upsetting and worrisome as the original ideology that you apparently fear is promoted by such imagery. In truth, I suspect that your decision to take these actions represents little more than a calculated effort to jump on a bandwagon of political correct hysteria that is sweeping the nation, in the wake of the racial tensions, race-baiting and promotion of racial-hatred that has largely been fanned by race-baiting, extremist voices in in American society.

In the first place, the idea that your banning of these items is actually a meaningful act is absurd. In the second place, by taking this action you have set a precedent and opened a door to potentially far more injurious breaches of free speech, education and openness.

If all representations of the CSA flag are to be considered "too offensive" to risk your carrying products that bear such imagery, then what about products which may bear such imagery even though they contain no substantive support for and perhaps even criticism of the CSA and its ideals?

There are many products which might fit into this category, including books, computer game, and even clothing, flags or memorabilia. Does an image of the Confederate flag necessarily constitute "support" for the CSA or its ideals? In banning all such representations from your product line, you have in effect stated such a policy. The implications of such mindless self-censorship are chilling to consider.

“Huckleberry Finn” is arguably one of the most anti-racist books in American history. Nonetheless during the early 20th century it was banned from many libraries simply because it included the derogatory form of the word “negro;” simpleminded reactionaries who could not be bothered to actually read and understand the book took the inclusion of that single word in the book as sufficient sign that the book supported or promoted racism.

“Django Unchained," is a recent hit movie set in the pre-Civil War south which is unquestionably anti-racist and anti-CSA. If any of the advertising or packaging of this movie include a CSA flag, that would, according to the logic of your blanket self-censorship, constitute an unacceptable risk of promoting racism and hatred. Were you to ban a work like “Django Unchained” simply because it included a CSA flag, you would in fact be guilty of undermining a product with a strongly anti-racist and anti-CSA message. The absurdity of your actions is that, by banning all products that bear the CSA flag, you are at risk of undermining education, as well as judicious commentary, much less worthwhile critiques of the racism and hatred of the CSA itself. You are of course, not obliged to sell products which you deem to be offensive. But by declaring that any product that bears a CSA flag IS offensive you have committed the very sort of bigotry and intolerance that you are presumably intending not to promote through your self-censorship.

I support your concern about not contributing to racism or hatred. But I strongly denounce you blanket self-censorship for failing to actually do anything meaningful to act on that concern and for setting a precedent that is likely to promote racism and hatred. By removing all products that bear the CSA flag, you may feel you have acted conscientiously, or at least fashionable in terms of the bandwagon of self-censorship that is sweeping the nation in the wake of the Charleston Massacre. But in fact, with a blanket self-censorship of any product bearing the CSA flag you acted irresponsibly and irrationally. I would ask that you and your legal staff, step back, think hard and reassess your decision to ban all products bearing the CSA flag.

In spite of my loathing of the CSA, as long as you maintain your current policy, which I deem to be censorship, I will make a point of avoiding doing business with you. Moreover, I will communicate my thoughts on the matter widely and encourage others to act as they see fit.

[warspite1]

Ignore that question

[Aurelian]

OK

[KISSMEUFOOL!]

Bad idea to compromise with censorship. The flag must remain-

[E]

ORIGINAL: JW
Gay marriage ruling issued today by the US Supreme Court. Media is now all over that. Confederate flag issue will fade from center stage for now. It was just the issue of the moment. That is how we do things in America. Media can only handle one major event at a time.

That is true, as far as you go with it. But you've overlooked the vitally dangerous aspect... the consequences of a media frenzy can and do last FAR longer than the media's attention span.

[Gilmer]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

But to who? Depending upon your viewpoint the Stars and Stripes are a flag of treason, no?

Depends on who won the war I suppose.

warspite1

Yes - history is written by the winners and all that.... But even so - that does not give a reason why an historically accurate FLAG cannot be used in a game???

I will be playing SOW Antietam at the weekend - that has the Confederate Flag in it? So what, shall I get my KKK outfit back from the drycleaners??

[&:]

Only if you play the Southern side and enjoy it.