Air war observations

[Chris21wen]

Now I'm a year into my first full scenario there are some observations about the way the air war works that need changing but I suspect I'm not the first to say these thing. They relate to unit selection and not results although bombing anything other than a unit seems a waste of time as the Soviets.

• You need to be able to rest air groups that are in a/b and/or possibly the a/b itself. The only way to rest them currently is to send them to the reserve or control air ops manually and not select them (see below about this). Doing the later means you also have to turn off ground support but that turns it off for all units.
• During the air group selection for a raid you should be able to see the number, experience, moral and used percentage of an air group. Currently you can only see the number and percentage during the selection phase but I don't think it's needed except for recon and transport.
• Showing percentage flown when you hover over an a/b would ease air group selection; morvael has noted this.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

[*] During the air group selection for a raid you should be able to see the number, experience, moral and used percentage of an air group. Currently you can only see the number and percentage during the selection phase but I don't think it's needed except for recon and transport.

would also help to see command designation, especially if you are trying to save air units for later attacks and don't want a pile of notes identifying each unit by command

in addition, when selecting from the National Reserve, it would be good to see fatigue as well as morale and experience.

In general, I am utterly in awe at the revision of the air war for WiTW, solves so many of the problems that affect WiTE

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Chris H

[*] During the air group selection for a raid you should be able to see the number, experience, moral and used percentage of an air group. Currently you can only see the number and percentage during the selection phase but I don't think it's needed except for recon and transport.

would also help to see command designation, especially if you are trying to save air units for later attacks and don't want a pile of notes identifying each unit by command

in addition, when selecting from the National Reserve, it would be good to see fatigue as well as morale and experience.

In general, I am utterly in awe at the revision of the air war for WiTW, solves so many of the problems that affect WiTE

I agree with everything you said. I've only tinkered with it to date but the air war in WitW is a game within a game.

[von altair]

Its known fact, that Air War is broken in this game. It has been that from the beginning and it still hasn't fixed properly.
There even seem to be a bug, that miss-displays incorrect casualties.

There is no balance in it at all. Without houserule, you can't play the game against knowing opponent.

[Chris21wen]

I've been have some success ground attacking units using the U-2VS night TacB, Never been quite sure what the results mean but it looks reasonable. Here's typical attack.

[Chris21wen]

Now what happens if I use the U-2VS to attack an a/b. Well nothing that I can see, apart from hitting the latrine squad.

[loki100]

I'm making a lot of use of the U2s in my current PBEM, even managed to provoke my opponent to waste bombs by attacking their airbases.

I think the game does a good job of modelling their nuisance value. Typical tactics were to cut the engine, fly over a rear area concentration, drop a small bomb, even lob down a few hand grenades and then try to restart the engine and fly off. The impact of course was a degree of chaos on the ground - trying to sort out if its a partisan attack, if someone was playing with grenades and blew themselves up etc. The net effect being a lot of nervous energy and lost sleep. You tend to see that by relatively low actual losses and high levels of disruption.

When you hit an airfield, I think a lot of this is lost. Given the weaponry, you are really unlikely to damage a plane and there are less people around to confuse and make run about.

If you are having a bad time of a game in 1942, then you can derive a lot of pleasure out of the U2s. Also their relatively high disruption effect makes them a very good way to start off a major offensive.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'm making a lot of use of the U2s in my current PBEM, even managed to provoke my opponent to waste bombs by attacking their airbases.

I think the game does a good job of modelling their nuisance value. Typical tactics were to cut the engine, fly over a rear area concentration, drop a small bomb, even lob down a few hand grenades and then try to restart the engine and fly off. The impact of course was a degree of chaos on the ground - trying to sort out if its a partisan attack, if someone was playing with grenades and blew themselves up etc. The net effect being a lot of nervous energy and lost sleep. You tend to see that by relatively low actual losses and high levels of disruption.

When you hit an airfield, I think a lot of this is lost. Given the weaponry, you are really unlikely to damage a plane and there are less people around to confuse and make run about.

If you are having a bad time of a game in 1942, then you can derive a lot of pleasure out of the U2s. Also their relatively high disruption effect makes them a very good way to start off a major offensive.

I like them, but back to my point that I did not make clear. There appears to be little damage when you view the battle sites as posted. If you actually watch the combat, level 3 and above, you can see the results of the a/b attack by watching the Axis Forces Defending numbers changing. What you see viewing the battle site is, as in the case above, 35:39 Ju 52/3m meaning 35 out of 39 operational. This is not the results of the attack just the status of the a/c after the attack.

The results of the attack need to be displayed. There looks like there's space in the pane for this info say (4/1) meaning 4 damaged/1 destroyed.

[swkuh]

For Axis:

Air Doctrine settings are important, can plan for many small attacks, or very few large ones (players' calls.) Disposing useful aircraft to well located ABs quite important. Once you have that, then let it go on automatic. Time saver. Even let equipment upgrades be automatic. Seems to be the developers' plan.

Until '43 or so, CCCRs air power is well handled (think so here) by auto-interceptions.

[randallw]

The results of night bombing have been dropped with the 1.08 patch. Sometimes about 30 or 40 planes ( larger loads than the U2 ) won't hurt a single German, other times they kill 20 guys and 2 or 3 arty pieces. Getting useful results is almost blind luck now.

[morvael]

Other than improving flak balance and interceptions, I don't remember doing something that would nerf night bombing directly.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Other than improving flak balance and interceptions, I don't remember doing something that would nerf night bombing directly.

Once I realised you had to watch the combat to see the results, night bombing is effective.

[morvael]

Aside from real instant losses, bombing adds disruption. Disruption converts to fatigue, and this decreases unit efficiency and may lead to additional losses later.

[micheljq]

Soviet losses are insane as they should be. The aviation of the red army simply did not make it against the Luftwaffe until late 1943 or 1944 if i am right. During Stalingrad battle, late 1942, the red army's was almost only doing night missions to avoid fighting Luftwaffe's fighters.

I am in turn 11 as the soviet, some of my airgroup lost all their fighters. I will have to put ground support to zero for a while. But I must say that even so, my bombers did help in many combats, and Lufwaffe lost many fighters and bombers as well.

But when I strike directly units that are well advanced, i manage to bomb without losing many bombers. When interdicting also, i lose almost no bombers.

Michel.

[Huw Jones]

Lots of soviet AA helps as well.

I put 2 AA in all of my ground HQs over time.

[micheljq]

I could attach more AA to my soviet headquarters to diminish the impact of enemy bombers myself.

[von altair]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Soviet losses are insane as they should be. The aviation of the red army simply did not make it against the Luftwaffe until late 1943 or 1944 if i am right. During Stalingrad battle, late 1942, the red army's was almost only doing night missions to avoid fighting Luftwaffe's fighters.

I am in turn 11 as the soviet, some of my airgroup lost all their fighters. I will have to put ground support to zero for a while. But I must say that even so, my bombers did help in many combats, and Lufwaffe lost many fighters and bombers as well.

But when I strike directly units that are well advanced, i manage to bomb without losing many bombers. When interdicting also, i lose almost no bombers.

Michel.

Thats what you sayd are historical, yes. In this game, it is possible to wipe out Luftwaffe at early -42 spring. Even earlier if Germany didin't success in it first strike at turn 1-2. In my regular games, I can make 200-500 plane casualties for Luftwaffe / turn and it wont last long until it is dry.

[Sardaukar]

I am trying to get back to WitE after a while. Does anyone have good air doctrine settings for Soviets (in 1941-42)?

I usually send all bombers to national reserve for a while, except long range ones used at night for drops to partisans. I do keep fighters/fighter bombers usually on map (except worst units), since I have to concede total air superiority to Germans.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I am trying to get back to WitE after a while. Does anyone have good air doctrine settings for Soviets (in 1941-42)?

I usually send all bombers to national reserve for a while, except long range ones used at night for drops to partisans. I do keep fighters/fighter bombers usually on map (except worst units), since I have to concede total air superiority to Germans.

My take on it.

First turn I send everything there with the exception of 1 x Recon and 1x IAP that I attach to VVS bases. Frozen units follow once they become available. All other bases I moved tot he rear.

Once the first partisan unit arrives I build up VVS bases. (2 x NBAP, 1 x RAP, 2 x TAP N/D (Transports:- 1 x DBAB (N) can be used in lieu if you have a shortage of TR), 1 x IAP (Fighters). These bases are used to support partizans and for recon.

At the same time I start to build up:-

• DBAD bases with LR level bombers with endurance >=500 - TB-3, DB-3B, IL-4, Pe-8, Yer-2. All are set to night. Each base also gets an IAP set to day ops.
• PVO bases with fighter/FB only.

I then do the following

• You have too many SAD airbases. The men locked up in them are needed else where so from turn 2 start to disband them, they will disband automatically starting Feb 1942.
• Starting turn 5 and for the same reason you can disband the following Air HQ: Long Range Air Cmd, Northern Fleet Air Cmd, Baltic Fleet Air Cmd and the Moscow PVO Air Cmd.
• All fronts have their on Air Army. Redistribute a/b so that each Front has 4-6 a/b.
• In September, you can start rebuilding for the winter offensive. Initially give each Front four airbases, gradually increasing to seven before the winter offensice starts. For each Front Air Army give:-
• With the exception of the VVS, PVO and DBAB bases all bases function the same.
  Each base should contain:-
  2/3 x IAB/IAD (Fighter bombers) - Only use a/c that are produced during the war. All pre-war should be left in reserve for emergencies. If you use three FB than on should be set to bomber.
  1/2 x BAD (Level bombers with endurance <500 - SB-2, Pe-2, Ar-2, Li-2VP, A-20B/G, B-25D/J, Tu-2/2S,)
  1/2 x ShAP/BAP (Tactical Bambers - IL-2 or Su-2 for assault).
  1 x NBAP (Night TacB - U2VS)

Some of this comes from others recommendations but I've adapted it to suit myself. As I have found out you will have to change the a/b composition as the game progress.

[Sardaukar]

Thanks, that is pretty much what I do too.

But what sort of %s you use in Air Doctrine?