Any Chance This Could Be Changed?

[Trugrit]

You can use recon missions to ground search empty ground hexes.
(This is recon missions outside of bases and dot hexes)

It appears to work like this. If you set a recon mission to what you see as an empty ground Hex,the game engine looks at that hex.
If it doesn’t see an enemy unit the groups target is reset to Commander Discretion and the game will pick other targets if they are available.
If the game picks other targets they will be enemy base targets.

If the game does see an enemy unit in the hex the recon mission is flown as normal.
The groups target remains set on that hex. Pilot mission numbers will increase.
You will get a spotting report if the DL increase shows the unit on the tactical map.

The fact that the groups target remains set on the hex indicates that it is enemy occupied.
Sometimes you will not be able to see the enemy on the tactical map but you will know
An enemy unit is there because the groups target will remain set on that hex.
You won’t get a spotting report when this happens.
This happens most often when a non-recon type plane performs ground recon.
(Low DL result)

The way the game is now if you want to set a group to perform surveillance on an empty hex you will have to do that manually each turn.
This is a real pain when the game sees an empty hex, changes to commander discretion and sends the group
where you don’t want them to go - over an enemy base hex.

If I could change something it would be this:

When a recon mission is set by the player to any hex the groups target remains set on that hex
unless the group begins to track an enemy ground unit leaving that hex.

Commander Discretion would remain as is, only picking enemy base hexes.

This would mean of course that if you set a recon mission to an all ocean hex the
Target would remain set there without ever being able to get a result.
Awkward, but in my humble opinion this would be acceptable.

Any chance the game could be changed to do this?

As an example of hex surveillance:

I’m the British and I have units in Akyab. The Japanese have Prome.
There is a coastal road from Prome to Akyab. A prime route for Japanese advance.

What I would like to do is set a recon group to recon hex 54, 49 continuously.
That hex is a ground hex on the road just across the Irrawaddy River.

In other words I want a recon group to automatically watch that hex so that if an enemy ground unit crosses the river
I’ll know, far in advance, that the Japanese may be advancing on Akyab.

It would be nice if the game would drop a note in my operations report if it sees a unit on that road.
This would not be a necessity though. I could just watch the hex each turn.

That way I would not have to recon Prome and suffer AA fire or have the game change the mission
To commander discretion and fly the group over Prome or Rangoon.

Thanks

[witpqs]

BTW, although not directly to the issue you raise but just in case you don't know it, when you set a recon group to have no target it will (paraphrasing my experience) sort or patrol the area and often find previously unseen enemy units in non-targeted hexes. Subject to what I am sure are deliberate imperfections and of course FOW. Just FYI.

[Trugrit]

I did not know that. I have seen ground units pop up from time to time but
I always thought it was SIGINT modified by FOW when it didn’t show up
In the report.

I did not even suspect recon flights for several reasons.

First, I’ve never seen anything about this in the manual or on the forum.
(I’ll go back and check the documentation again)

Second, with a group set to recon at commander discretion you can see the missions
Being flown during the combat replay.

Third, a recon mission only flies one or two planes. By looking at the pilot’s mission flown
Numbers you can see which pilots are flying the missions. You can even tell which planes
They are using by looking at the plane fatigue numbers.

When a group is set to naval search the pilot mission numbers will increase.
Naval search is a different thing. The whole group flies.

What you are saying is that the game engine is using recon at commander discretion to
Run a covert ground search without using pilots or planes. I had no idea.

No offense intended, but can you point me to anything that confirms this?

Thanks

[witpqs]

Not off hand. And note that I did not say that all sightings of unsuspected units are due to that, I said that they can find such units.

[Alfred]

What you want would in turn create its own set of problems and is not completely compatible with the existing game design.

1.  Unlike Naval Search/ASW which are area searches, Recon is a point to point activity.  The game engine is based on point to point air activity.  Which is one reason why there is no interception of enemy air strikes on route to their target from non target friendly air bases.  It is also why most aircraft in a unit tasked with a recon mission do not fly that mission.

2.  Recon, which is a point to point mission, is considered an offensive mission.  As such ss.7.2.1.7 and 7.2.1.8 of the manual apply.  If nothing is found in the hex, the game code for all offensive missions reverts to commander discretion.  This is not normally obvious when the target is a base because the base alone "is something there".  But out in the field "nothing is there" unless something is found.

3.  DL and MDL are closely related, but nonetheless separate concepts.  You seem to be confusing both here.  Chapter 10 of the manual covers this area.  It is not a unit's DL which determines whether it is displayed on the map, but it's MDL.  The experience level of the pilot flying the recon mission is also very important.

If you were using dedicated recon planes piloted with good recon skills, the MDL on the first run will be 4 and therefore the unit will be displayed on the map.  The decline rate of the MDL is such that even if you flew no subsequent recon mission over the same hex the following day, the MDL would still be over 1 and thus the unit would still appear on the map. 

However, because you are not flying dedicated recon planes and the pilots do not have good recon skills, the MDL decline rate is sufficient for the unit to not be displayed on the map.

4.  Assume michaelm and the other devs thought the additional work was merited.  Two immediate problems spring to mind.

(a) you mention the recon flight would stay on the hex and only move out when tracking the movement out of the hex of the enemy.  What if there are two or more enemy units in the hex and only one moves out?  Does the recon move with that unit or remain at the hex.  On what basis is the choice made.  On current programming, following your suggestion, the recon would remain on the "old" hex because "something is still there" and commander discretion would not kick in.  But what if you deemed the moving unit to be more important.  You would again be required to manually order a new recon mission.

(b) how many players would then complain that their recon flights are being wasted on unimportant hexes when much more important data would be revealed if the unit were left on commander discretion.

5.  Setting recon over a non base hex is very much sub optimal use of one's limited recon assets.  There are limited times when it is warranted, but not most of the time.  Dedicated recon planes are very difficult to bring down by enemy CAP or flak so that isn't a relevant factor for them to not be flown against enemy bases.  Recon Prome and you will see when LCUs leave plus you will get valuable data on other enemy assets.  The devs are not known for tinkering with the code to cater for sub optimal play.


Alfred

Edit:

Trugrit,

Just to refresh your memory, reread this thread (and the hyper link) on cameras

tm.asp?m=3694325&mpage=1&key=camera&#3694407

[Trugrit]

Alfred,

Thanks for your reply.

As I said in the first post, the game will let me do everything I want to do with ground search.
I’m O.K. with that, it’s just a pain getting it done. True, I don’t have any idea what it would
Take to change it, that’s why I asked.

Michaelm has done a wonderful job with the betas in reducing repetitive pain.
I’ve always viewed the betas as pain reducing medicine.

Your point 4(a). Right now if a recon group spots enemy ground units in the open the
Groups target will stay on that hex. My understanding is that if one or more combat units leave
the hex, the recon group will lock on the units and follow them to the new hex.
The new hex becomes the groups new target hex.
A player has always had the ability to move some units out of the hex and leave some units behind.
The recon group will follow the moving units. If it does not work like this
please let me know. I have not suggested any changes to the way it works now.

Your point 4(b) – It is up to the player to learn the game and use his assets as he sees fit.
I like to play the game, I don’t much like it when the game plays me.
The change would have to be a beta. Beta changes are always player optional.

Your point 5 – Sometimes it’s necessary. Sub optimal is in the way recon assets are deployed.

For ground search I use bombers on recon missions at very high altitude.
If there is an enemy ground unit in a hex the bomber group will usually find it.
I’ve had Japanese Sally’s at 30,000 feet with pilot recon skill of 39 find a 300 man combat
Unit in heavy jungle. Bombers won’t give you very accurate spotting reports, but they will find the units.
Then if I need a more accurate report I can send in the dedicated recon planes with
Very little danger. I never use recon planes to ground search outside base hexes unless
I know there are enemy units in the hex. Because of the game engine.

The only serious danger to the bombers is the game engine.

Right now, it is a situation like this:

Group Commander:
“Lt. Murphy; HQ wants you to fly recon on hex 34, 74.
Take Lt. Jones and his plane with you.”

Lt. Murphy:
“Is there an enemy ground unit in hex 34, 74 sir?”

Group Commander:
“I don’t know. That is what HQ wants to find out. If you spot an enemy
Ground unit, we can have the recon boys go back and photograph to confirm.”

Lt. Murphy:
“Yes Sir, but if I don’t see an enemy unit in that hex what do I do?”

Group Commander:
“In that case, I want you to fly over Rangoon.
HQ already knows every enemy unit there but this will give us a chance
To test the Japanese cap and flak. It will also give you a chance to gain
experience by getting shot at, and even if you don’t crash your shot
up planes when you land back here the added fatigue on the aircraft
will give the ground crew something to work on.
We don’t want them to get bored.
Then this afternoon, I’ll send another set of fresh planes over there
so we can see what happens to them.”

Lt. Murphy:
“Sir,with all due respect.....your crazy as a bed bug”

Alfred,
You have provided me with very good information on recon and cameras and I’m very grateful.

Much Thanks