58 more F-35As to Australia

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Rudd
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58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by Rudd »

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott will announce on 23 April that his government has approved the acquisition of 58 Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters, to replace the Royal Australian Air Force’s Boeing F/A-18A/B "classic" Hornets.

The 58 aircraft will comprise a second tranche of the Australian Defence Force’s Air 6000 Phase 2A/2B new air combat capability (NACC) project. The first tranche totalled 14 A-model jets, two of which are currently in final production as part of the multinational programme’s sixth lot of low-rate initial production (LRIP). A contract covering long-lead production items for the other 12 during LRIP blocks eight and nine is currently being negotiated with the USA.

The first two RAAF aircraft are scheduled to be delivered to the USAF’s integrated training centre at Luke AFB in Arizona by the end of the year, while the service’s first pilot for the type will begin training at Eglin AFB in California in December, and the second at Luke in April 2015. Australia's first F-35A unit will be 3 Sqn, based at RAAF Williamtown in New South Wales. Its first four aircraft are to be ferried to Australia in 2018 to support operational evaluation activities, before the type achieves initial operating capability in 2020.

The decision follows the two-year deferral of a second tranche approval by the then-Labor government in May 2012. Since coming to power last September, the intentions of Abbott's coalition government have been difficult to gauge. Ministers have hinted at the massive spending cuts required to address a looming “budget emergency”, while also advocating the need for increased defence spending.

The 72 F-35As on order will replace the 71 F/A-18A/B Hornets of the RAAF's 3 and 77 squadrons, and its 2 Operational Conversion Unit – all based at Williamtown – as well as those of 75 Sqn, based at Tindal air base in the Northern Territory. Its fighter squadrons typically have 15 aircraft on strength, so a maintenance and attrition reserve of 12 jets has been allowed for.

A further Phase 2C tranche of the project, for up to 28 additional combat aircraft, was also deferred in 2012 for a decision in the early 2020s. These would replace the 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets of the RAAF's Amberley-based 1 and 6 squadrons. The Super Hornets were ordered in 2006 as a ‘bridging’ capability between the retirement of the General Dynamics F-111C in 2010 and the arrival of the F-35A. However, ongoing delays to the JSF programme mean it is likely the Super Hornets will be retained, alongside the 12 Boeing EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft also on order, for 20 years or more.

from http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-398443/

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goodwoodrw
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by goodwoodrw »

A dozen or so B models would make the Canberra class ships a lot more flexible.
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by Dobey455 »

ORIGINAL: BASB

A dozen or so B models would make the Canberra class ships a lot more flexible.


I'm not so sure.

Half a dozen fixed wing A/C per hull is a LOOOOONG way short of being an aircraft carrier. What value would you realistically get from them?

And in exchange for adding the F-35's you loose the helicopters - which are kind of important for an amphibious warfare ship when it needs to perform its primary function of landing troops.
Without choppers it only has the option to offload troops directly onto a beach - and has to sail into spitting distance of the shore to do so.

So in the end you get a ship trying to perform two roles and not doing either one particularly well.
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by NickD »

Given that setting up and maintaining a naval aviation capability also has large fixed costs, you'd also have to trade off other elements of the Navy to pay for this. If Australia had replaced HMAS Melbourne in the early 1980s some other element of the fleet would have had to have been chopped (most likely the submarines). At the time the Australian Defence Force recommended to the government that replacing Melbourne wasn't worth the trade offs, and there have been no serious suggestions that its position has changed.
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by thewood1 »

Sounds like the core idea for a scenario...
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by cwemyss »

Lots of "short of war" scenarios where 4-6 fighters and 8-10 helos give you a ton of very attractive choices.
Edit: also for warlike situations against non-peer competitors....not a completely unheard of situation for Australia, if I'm not mistaken.

And the option to load up, and go to sea with 12 networked fifth-gen fighters on board.... not a bad way to go to war, if there's not a US CVN hanging around.
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goodwoodrw
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by goodwoodrw »

Hey the F35 is getting some bad press here in OZ, one ex fighter pilot, (a former Vice Air Marshall) claiming they are no match as fighter a/c against some of the latest Russian fighters. He basically says an aircraft can't be the best attack aircraft and the best fighter at the same time. Is he right or wrong and is Australia going into another expensive bad buy?
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by cwemyss »

Full disclosure, I work on the F-35 program.... but I also don't have blinders on. The program hasn't been perfect and it's not an F-22, but it's no slouch. It might not out-turn a Flanker (I don't have access to that information, and a retired AVM probably doesn't either) but I've watched them on mil power outclimb Falcons and Hornets on burner.

Time will tell, but your government isn't exactly going into this uninformed and I honestly think they're getting a great plane. It's got an amazing sensor suite, fully networked capability with other aircraft, ships, etc, decent weapons capability and range. I have yet to hear anything negative from an operator, they universally love the handling and the situational awareness.

I think I said it in another thread: give your pilots and maintainers a chance to get some hands-on experience (later this year!) before passing judgement.


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AlmightyTallest
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by AlmightyTallest »

The public info demonstrated by the F-35 sensors in some of these videos really helps to put together a tactical picture of what's going on in an easy to understand manner.

Here's the DAS picking out hostile fire and locating various threats around a small town.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHZO0T5mDYU&list=PLxYF2Xt6-JqGp-LHnQucGbtbQTBdsnFp2&index=3

combined with the power of the APG-81 radar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIwAOupjMeM&list=PLxYF2Xt6-JqGp-LHnQucGbtbQTBdsnFp2&index=6

Now you can for example, detect those enemy tanks, but elect to bypass them and go for the SAM site up ahead, but relay the targeting info for an MLRS, other artillery, or another aircraft strike package to take care of them, like we can in CMANO.


Found this article on the F-35 interesting as well. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airforcemag.com%2FMagazineArchive%2FDocuments%2F2012%2FNovember%25202012%2F1112fighter.pdf&ei=noVYU4-yE9PQsQTV2YDQCA&usg=AFQjCNElo2NUK8r-9j91FsK19Ri4TypXzg&bvm=bv.65397613,d.cWc
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NakedWeasel
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by NakedWeasel »

(not meant as a reply to AlmightyTallest. He knows what's up...)

Half a dozen F-35's, armed with the right weapons: JSOW, JASSM, LRASM, AMRAAM etc, is a major force multiplier. Even externally loaded, without all LO buttoned up tight, would do some serious damage to whatever specific target they were attacking. No reason to risk the mission, crew or aircraft if you launch from standoff range, rinse, and if necessary, repeat. If I was a MiG or Sukhoi driver and knew I was going to be facing F-35's, I wouldn't exactly be drinking toasts to my success before coming back to base. They do carry AMRAAMs and Sidewinders...

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AlmightyTallest
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by AlmightyTallest »

Like NakedWeasel said, a few F-35's can be big force multipliers if used correctly. I had wondered why a lot of other countries were going for the F-35 when they had quite a few other choices to look at, and going by what they must have seen in the capabilities of the planes there's something about the F-35 that makes the cost worth it.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2008-11-20/norway-picks-lockheed-f-35-planes-over-saabs-gripen-update5
The fighter planes were measured against four threat scenarios, including the defense of land territory, assertion of sovereignty in the northern territories, the defense of population clusters, and one pertaining to NATO's peacekeeping operations, the ministry said.

``The Joint Strike Fighter planes meet the criteria for all four of the threat scenarios, while Gripen only meets the needs of the international threat scenario,'' Defense Minister Anne-Grete Stroem-Erichsen said. The plane ``is considered to be better than Gripen within all the fighter plane's primary duties: information collection and surveillance, as well as combating in air, ground and sea territory.''

I can't find the exact article that actually explained those scenarios mentioned above in more detail, but what Norway was looking for was a plane that could act more like a mini AWACS and be networked with it's other forces, without having to rely as much on support aircraft like AWACS, Jamming, etc. to fulfill the mission. The F-35 must have met their requirement for that mission.

These are big defense decisions being made, but it's up to each individual country to decide if the product is worth the cost versus any alternative.

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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by NickD »

Can F-22s and F-35s really feasibly routinely operate without AWACS support as that infographic shows? Flying around with their radars on to detect incoming aircraft would obviously compromise their stealth features, and Australia has recently spent a small fortune buying Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft which are intended to operate with its F-35s. The F/A-18Gs are also meant to support the F-35s once they arrive so I'm sceptical about the infographic claiming that jammers won't be needed either.
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NakedWeasel
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by NakedWeasel »

The AESA radars installed on the F-22, and F-35 are supposed to be LPI-capable, or Low Probability of Intercept systems. This means that they could possibly operate to some degree without giving the LO fighter's exact position away. The full capabilities of these radars are among the US DOD's most closely guarded secrets. I've read that the F-22's radar is so powerful and advanced, that it could potentially be used to jam and possibly even damage an enemy's radar. I've also read that the F-35's radar could possibly be used to infect an enemy's computer network with virii and hacks, from a long distance, while remaining low observable. Don't know how much of that is true, but I wouldn't be surprised if any of it is true to some extent. There's a reason these platforms are so expensive, and it's not just for the shape, or paint, or because it's built in the USA. (At least not entirely [:D] )
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Agiel
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by Agiel »

The talk about the F-35 serving as a mini-AWACS reminds me of this comic (WARNING! MANGA/MANHWA AHEAD, IF YOU REALLY LOATHE THE STUFF):

i.imgur.com/mxZRT7n.png

Note about this comic, the AWACS aircraft in this comic are represented by girls wearing glasses and are members of the student council. And F-35 considers the J-31 to be her sister due to how astoundingly similar they look.

Re AESA jamming enemy radars/infecting computers with viruses: I still have a difficult time believing this with even with current capabilities of AESA, but I would not be surprised if the principle itself is sound given a powerful enough array and that the SKunkworks are investigating it for a future iteration.

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Blu3wolf
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by Blu3wolf »

The real question is whether or not the F-35s will get into situations requiring them to out-turn Flankers. Ideally, they will not. The big thing that has been repeated by LM at all levels has been that this aircraft is not about turning and burning, its about being a 'force multiplier' and using 'on board networking' that is apparently different to the integration other 4.5 jets already get like TADL-J support, and different to AWACS also.

I dunno about some of this, but I will agree with this unknown (to me) AVM and say that IMO an aircraft cannot be the best fighter and the best attack aircraft at the same time. If we wanted the best fighter, we would have pulled out of the F-35 program and either stood on the US to get us F-22s, or purchased EF-2Ks instead. For the price, either option would have saved quite a bit of money... given the unit price of somewhere under 172 million dollars (AUD) each for the F-35 (eliminating the 1.6 billion dollars for new facilities from the total, it comes to 150 million per jet).
ORIGINAL: NickD

Can F-22s and F-35s really feasibly routinely operate without AWACS support as that infographic shows? Flying around with their radars on to detect incoming aircraft would obviously compromise their stealth features, and Australia has recently spent a small fortune buying Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft which are intended to operate with its F-35s. The F/A-18Gs are also meant to support the F-35s once they arrive so I'm sceptical about the infographic claiming that jammers won't be needed either.

Fighter aircraft in general (ones without LPI radars) generally only go radar silent in rather specific situations - NOE flight for instance.

Even without an LPI radar set, switching on your radar will not give away your location, just a rough guess at it - the average fighter RWR will be able to make a guess at range based on signal strength, which is typically displayed as inside or outside a predetermined 'lethal range', and it will display a best guess at azimuth, with a host of effects that can stuff with it. Reliable word is that for fighter aircraft at least, they are not a particularly reliable device - and are somewhat prone to false positives too.

My best (uninformed) guess is that the average RWR on a 4.5 gen aircraft would have trouble at best picking up an LPI tracking it.

ORIGINAL: BASB

A dozen or so B models would make the Canberra class ships a lot more flexible.


I'm not so sure.

Half a dozen fixed wing A/C per hull is a LOOOOONG way short of being an aircraft carrier. What value would you realistically get from them?

And in exchange for adding the F-35's you loose the helicopters - which are kind of important for an amphibious warfare ship when it needs to perform its primary function of landing troops.
Without choppers it only has the option to offload troops directly onto a beach - and has to sail into spitting distance of the shore to do so.

So in the end you get a ship trying to perform two roles and not doing either one particularly well.
[/quote]
In fairness, that about sums up the F-35 program so it would not surprise me if that was at least proposed at an official level.
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AlmightyTallest
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by AlmightyTallest »

Well, I think the idea is that if the F-22's and F-35's have to under the worst conditions, they can do the job without support aircraft like the AWACS if need be. However, if you have an AWACS, and jammer support, all the easier for stealth aircraft to work. You can try this in Command for yourself. I'm beginning to see why the U.S. Navy wants those EA-18G's to work with the F-35's. The Growlers can jam a wide spectrum of SAM radar threats, but if the need arises, planes with AESA radar could jam x-band fire control radars to help them survive the threat.

This Boeing graphic below for the Advanced SuperHornet seems to imply the AESA of the Hornet is capable of jamming fire control radars, while the Growler's support them over a much broader spectrum of radar threats on page 18.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/bds/mediakit/2013/advanced_super_hornet/advanced_super_hornet_media_brief.pdf

Like NakedWeasel mentioned, these new radars are supposedly pretty hard to detect, and there's a lot of electronics sorcery that can be done with them, as well as ECM and offensive jamming techniques. If I know exactly what my own plane's radar cross section is, then I can send out a low power pulse from the radar with such a short emit time that it most likely won't be detected. And as I get closer to a threat, that same radar could reduce it's power more to maintain it's ability to remain undetected for example. I'm just going on a public example I found which demonstrated a Low Probability of Intercept anti-ship cruise missile radar system which reduced it's power as it got closer to a ship target to minimize detection of it's radar emitting.

You can read about the case study here on an LPI Anti ship radar seeker. Sort of makes you wonder if we don't already have something like this in upgraded Harpoon missiles for example.

http://books.google.com/books?id=K_T4M-nA6JYC&pg=PA301&lpg=PA301&dq=LPI+radar+anti+ship+cruise+missile&source=bl&ots=uPMBKAl8_H&sig=nuLX-dUhRDORQnTDo8WCHmWVgzk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x79ZU6HNAYiwyATJsYLoAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LPI%20radar%20anti%20ship%20cruise%20missile&f=false



Regarding jamming and AESA there's a hint in this article:

http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/military/Jammer-Next_70621.html
The podded NGJ system is expected to employ multiple electronically scanned arrays, consisting of thousands of transmit/receive modules, that combined will provide a wider field of regard than currently available on F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, EA-18G Growlers and Air Force F-22 Raptors equipped with active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. Electronically scanned radars have an effective field of regard of about 120 degrees for each planar array.

“The bringing of a broadband, electronically steerable antenna set is really the tipping point within this picture,” said Eduardo Palacio, ITT Electronic Systems vice president of programs. “[It] provides the agility in (radar) beam, not only in steering but in beam shaping and the number of beams that makes this a truly capable system over many, many years to come.”

The competing industry teams have been reserved in discussing their antenna concepts for the NGJ. However, Palacio added, “It’s safe to say that there’s no such thing in today’s technology as a single array that can cover the totality of frequency spectrum that needs to be covered, so everyone will build multiple arrays to fulfill the mission.”

Regarding some of the interesting capabilites of AESA radar:
Both the Super Hornet and the Growler are enabled by the APG-79 AESA radar. Raytheon recently delivered the 200th radar to the fleet, and the Navy has logged 150,000 flight hours with the APG-79, Darrah said. “As a radar, it’s a force multiplier,” he said. “What we’re able to do is use the AESA radar to designate, via SAR (synthetic aperture radar) map, precision coordinates that are then passed through Link 16 to non AESA-equipped aircraft.

“So what we’re doing is flying mixed sections,” Darrah explained. “I can have one AESA-equipped Super Hornet in a section of six aircraft, five of which can be legacy airplanes. I can use the precision capability of the AESA radar and Link 16 to send data offboard to the non AESA-equipped aircraft, and they’re able to deliver Joint Direct Attack Munitions or precision weapons to those targets without ever having to use their radars. They can be radar silent during this whole time.”

Regarding AESA on ships: http://news.usni.org/2014/01/17/navys-next-generation-radar-future-electronic-attack-abilities
Airborne AESA radars such as the Northrop Grumman APG-77 found on the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor already have an electronic attack capability. In the future, the Lockheed F-35 and Boeing F/A-18E/F and EA-18G will also receive a similar capability for the Northrop APG-81 and Raytheon APG-79 radars.

Similarly, all the contenders for the Navy’s Next Generation Jammer program use new Gallium Nitride-based (GaN) transmit-receiver modules, which are rapidly succeeding the older Gallium Arsenide-based systems found on the aforementioned radars.

The Navy having adopted high-power GaN based AESA radar for the Flight III ships, can leverage those technologies to use the destroyer’s radar to perform electronic attacks.

With the precise beam steering enabled by the AESA array, it would be possible for the array to attack airborne and surface target using tightly directed beams of high-powered radio waves. Potentially, such a capability would add to the Burke’s air and ballistic missile defense capabilities by blinding enemy aircraft, ships and incoming missiles.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/fa-18ef-to-use-aesa-as-jammer-208213/
F/A-18E/F Block 2 Super Hornet is set to become the first fighter to use its active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for electronic attack, with a planned software upgrade to allow its array of transmit/receive (T/R) modules to be used as a powerful directional jammer.

Under a "sensor integration" plan being drawn up, the Raytheon APG-79 AESA will be linked to the Raytheon ALR-67 radar warning receiver (RWR) via the fighter's fibre-optic network switch. The radar's ground mapping capability will then be used to pinpoint emitters detected by the RWR.

"This will allow us to begin single-ship geolocation of emitters," says Capt BD Gaddis, US Navy F/A-18 programme manager. The F/A-18E/F's BAE Systems ALQ-214 electronic countermeasures suite will also be integrated so the aircraft can jam emitters. "We will put the -214 jamming signal through the AESA T/R modules to put power on to the emitter," he says.

Although the capability has been widely discussed, it appears the Block 2 Super Hornet will be the first aircraft able to use its AESA for electronic attack. Rival radar manufacturer Northrop Grumman says its APG-77(V)1 and APG-81 AESAs for the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35, respectively, will have the capability, but it is not in currently funded plans.

Funding will determine when the sensor integration upgrade takes place, with the capability planned for the budget cycle beginning in fiscal year 2010. The USN is now selecting F/A-18E/F upgrades for funding beginning in FY08, Gaddis says, with candidates including an infrared search-and-track sensor; high off-boresight capability for the AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile; datalinks for the AIM-9X air-to-air missile and JSOW stand-off weapon; night vision capability for the JHMCS helmet-mounted display; and an AESA electronic counter-countermeasures upgrade.



These black projects are amazing to think about, unfortunately and understandibly very difficult to get real info on, we only have hints from the brochures and such for public consumption.

But given the hints above in the articles, it seems the AESA radar systems have some sort of capability to jam using various techniques.
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by goodwoodrw »

Blu3, go back to the day that Abbott made the announcement, AVM was named in his article the day after.
I think Criss is the man in question, but he may have a bit of a grudge as he was sacked from his job 2000
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by dillonkbase »

"The real question is whether or not the F-35s will get into situations requiring them to out-turn Flankers."

Isn't the point of all aspect missiles to eliminate this need. If an f-35 can turn tail and extend and then fire a missile over the shoulder, why would it need to get into a turning fight. And how did the flanker get that close anyway... I mean I know from the game it can take a large amount of missiles to intercept... but we can turn and extend...
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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by AlmightyTallest »

Man you guys are bringing up some good points.

dillonkbase, your right, I think the point is to not have the F-35's get involved in furballs if possible. It's mentioned in the first article I posted from some of the LM guys.

Then you see info about the Aim 9X Block II, and now the new reqirement for a BVR Aim-9X Block III, then you can start to see that they are extending the range and envelope where a plane like the F-35 can more easily extend while using the longer range and very maneuverable Aim 9X series.

http://defense-update.com/20130722_aim-9x-block-iii-to-become-a-bvr-missile.html
The US Navy is hoping to increase the range of the Raytheon AIM-9X air/air missile by some 60% over current Sidewinder variants. The Navy seek this enhanced capability particularly for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) says. The new weapon is scheduled to become operational in 2022.
According to NAVAIR, the current Block II AIM-9X already overlaps some of the range capability of the more powerful Raytheon AIM-120D AMRAAM, and this overlap is expected to increase with the future Block III, providing the F-35 pilot the flexibility to employ both radar guided or passive homing missiles in Beyond Visual Rang (BVR) engagments, NAVAIR says.

You can see various origional Aim-9x intercepts from the 2000 testing period here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CeuO1R4WE

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RE: 58 more F-35As to Australia

Post by cwemyss »

ORIGINAL: Blu3wolf
ORIGINAL: BASB

A dozen or so B models would make the Canberra class ships a lot more flexible.

I'm not so sure.

Half a dozen fixed wing A/C per hull is a LOOOOONG way short of being an aircraft carrier. What value would you realistically get from them?

And in exchange for adding the F-35's you loose the helicopters - which are kind of important for an amphibious warfare ship when it needs to perform its primary function of landing troops.
Without choppers it only has the option to offload troops directly onto a beach - and has to sail into spitting distance of the shore to do so.

So in the end you get a ship trying to perform two roles and not doing either one particularly well.

To be fair, both the large-deck Phibs and the CVNs spend a LOT more time doing "other" missions (show the flag, stability, non-combatant-evac, anti-piracy, etc) than they do either landing troops or launching alpha strikes. And for all the rest of the operations, flexibility is hugely beneficial.
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