"Epsom" for BFTB

[tukker]

As soon as I got my hands on the Estabs Editor, I've started converting my old HTTR "Epsom" and "Epsom Phase 4" scenarios (does anyone remember them?) to BFTB. These scenarios cover the British Epsom offensive in Normandy.

This time, I didn't have to cut corners: I've created the units, vehicles and weapons that were missing from the old HTTR Estabs myself. I've created Panzer companies equipped with Pz IV, Somua S-35 and Hotchkiss H-39 tanks, a Reihenwerfer auf Lorraine (as you all know, this vehicle boasted sixteen captured Brandt 8cm mortars mounted in a rotating turret on a captured Lorraine halftrack[;)]), and the Churchill AVRE with a Spigot mortar, amongst other things.

The Estab Editor is a very powerful tool indeed: with it, you can create any force, unit, vehicle and weapon used in WWII (and even before and beyond) by any nation. Granted, to do so you'll need a lot of time and a lot of data, and the AI doctrine will impose certain limitations on the way these units will behave during the game. Still, with this new tool I'm certain it'll be possible to create credible scenarios covering France 1940, the Western Desert, Italy, and even the Eastern Front or the Pacific.

Right now, I'm using the newly created Estabs to redo the scenarios mentioned above. As soon as they're finished, I'll see if I can post them somewhere. Stay tuned...

Pieter

[TAIL GUNNER]

I don't recall any French tanks in the Britsh sector...
 
If you're referring to the ones employed by 21 Panzer, they were all sent away shortly before the invasion.
 
ChadG

[tukker]

Zetterling lists them for June 1, 1944. But if you have a reliable source stating that they were taken away, I will of course remove them ASAP [:)]

Pieter

[TMO]

Tukker

I remember those. Looking forward to your new versions.

Regards

Tim

[TAIL GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: tukker

Zetterling lists them for June 1, 1944. But if you have a reliable source stating that they were taken away, I will of course remove them ASAP [:)]

Pieter

Hi Pieter,

Here's an excellent file I found about the 21 Panzer long ago and uploaded to my page....see the notes under the section "Battalion Battlegroups (Panzers)"

Other sources state the same...would be a cool "what if" scenario though..

ChadG

21 Panzer

[Fred98]

Hi,
 
We need a passwrod to log on to that page.
 

[TAIL GUNNER]

My bad....link fixed.[8D]

[tukker]

Hi Chad,

In the OOB in your link, the French tanks are listed in Staff, 5, 6, and 7 coys/22 Pz Regt. Their distribution is exactly the same as Zetterlings here: http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/gerob/gerob.html.

Either it uses the same (primary) source as Zetterling, or used Zetterlings OOB itself. Either case, for now the S-35 and H-39 are in [;)]

Pieter

[GoodGuy]

Hey tukker,

good luck with your Epsom scenarios. [:)]
Make sure you contact Erik/Dave to get it on the BFTB webby!

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

I don't recall any French tanks in the Britsh sector...

If you're referring to the ones employed by 21 Panzer, they were all sent away shortly before the invasion.

ChadG

The "PzRegt. 22" mentioned by Zetterling was in fact the PzRegt. 100, which was annihilated in the Falaise pocket later on.
Quite contrary, the 22. Regt. was built in 1945 as PzRgt for the forming rebuild of the 21. PD [forming since September 1944 and training on the Panther].

Still, the French tanks were an integral part of the Panzer-Regiment 100, they were the ONLY armor they started out with, actually.
In summer 1943, the Pz.Rgt. 100 had ~56 Somua, 133 Hotchkiss and 30 B1 tanks.

So, on 1st of June 1944, the french items were still vital, despite the delivery of some 98 or 99 PzIV, where at least 6 were obsolete PzIV with the short barreled 75mm gun. At the time, the 5th Coy had 9 Somua, 6th and 7th Coy had 13 Somua each, plus 2 Hotchkiss (6th Coy).

On 6th of June, that German armor (as well as their French equipment) was committed to the British beachhead in Normandy, because the German HQ regarded the British build-up as the bigger threat (than the US beachheads).
Some of the French tanks (along with some StuG, IIRC) got shot up badly during an encounter with Allied INF that operated a few AT guns, early in the Campaign, when a spearheading German contingent (mostly consisting of PzIII, the French tanks and some StuG, IIRC) crossed a bridge to approach/counterattack a village, IIRC. The assault wasn't executed in a good manner, plus the Allied units spilled PIATs or zookas, not expected by the Germans, it seems, so the had to pull back. There are pictures that display the aftermath of this encounter (disaster?), showing some shot up French tanks and a StuG in the ditch and an Allied AT gun right on the street. I don't recall the exact date, but that must have been an early Normandy encounter.

Some time after 12th of June, the Pz.Rgt. 100 was detached from the 21st PzDiv (IRC), but was committed at the Caen front all through July 1944 (continuously), where the remnants then ended up in the pocket of falaise. During Epsom, the remainder of the French tanks may not have been committed against superior British equipment, but they still operated as part of Pz.Rgt. 100. They were not withdrawn to take over say rearguard duties, afaik.

So tukker's right, imho.

[TAIL GUNNER]

The "PzRegt. 22" mentioned by Zetterling was in fact the PzRegt. 100, which was annihilated in the Falaise pocket later on.
Quite contrary, the 22. Regt. was built in 1945 as PzRgt for the forming rebuild of the 21. PD [forming since September 1944 and training on the Panther].

"On 20 May 1944, Panzer-Regiment 100 of the 21st Panzer Division was ordered to reorganize to the "Frie Gliederung" and was renamed Panzer-Regiment 22 effective immediately . The I. Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 22 was to be outfitted with 17 Pzkpfw IVs in each of it’s four Panzer-Kompanien and the II. Abteilung still in possession of Beute-Panzers [captured tanks] was to be outfitted with 14 Pzkpfw IVs in each of its four Panzer-Kompanien", Pg 158, Thomas L. Jentz, Panzertruppen Volume 2, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, PA 1996


"Furthermore, on 24 May, 14 Mark IVs were sent to the division".....from Zetterling.
This would indicate the French junk was in the process of being phased out and the Frie Gliederung being implemented....

There are no photos of knocked-out French beute tanks in the British sector....believe me, I've looked.

GoodGuy, the action you're describing sounds like Pegasus Bridge in the British Airborne sector, but I think you're confusing photographic evidence with the American paratroopers actions at La Fiere Bridge.

Pegasus discussion
And a quote from the file I linked:

"Despite wargamers’ undoubted enthusiasm for the French ‘panzers’
(including my own), evidence for their combat use within Panzer-Regiment
22 is non-existent. These strengths are based on the returns of 1st June,
though it would seem that the crews departed soon afterwards for the
panzer training ground at Mailly-le-Camp to collect and train with new
Pzkpfw IVs that had already been dispatched from Germany (these new
panzers reached the division in early July). Oppeln’s orders for his attack on
the afternoon of 6th June only lists numbers of Pzkpfw IVs at his disposal –
it makes no mention whatsoever of the Somuas and Hotchkisses listed
above."

Regards,
ChadG

[tukker]

Here's some more information on the OOB of Pz Regt 22 (Good Guy, it looks like the regiment was renamed in May 1944, contrary to what the Lexicon der Wehrmacht says)
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=995&highlight=panzerdivision

So the regiment probably did have French tanks in its OOB, but they were being phased out. I don't think it's very likely they were used operationally in June. They won't make an appearance in Epsom, but I'll keep them in the Estabs just for fun [;)]

Pieter

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: tukker

Here's some more information on the OOB of Pz Regt 22 (Good Guy, it looks like the regiment was renamed in May 1944, contrary to what the Lexicon der Wehrmacht says)
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=995&highlight=panzerdivision

Actually, I got my info (regarding the unit designation) from Georg Tessin "Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945", Volume 6, "Die Landstreitkräfte 71-130", page 164, where Tessin seems to insist that a renaming did not take place.

EDIT:
I've got a declassified NARA scan of the "English Copy" of Feuchtinger's testimony ("21st Panzer Division in Combat against American Troops in France and Germany"), where he lists the OOB of the 21st. He keeps referring to the 22nd Pz.Rgt., in fact. On the first page he warns that the report may not be as accurate as he may wish for, because his own war diary and documents were not at his disposal at the time, and because his memory may not serve him well regarding all details.

Interestingly, despite mentioning the fact that the 21st Pz. Div was "torn to pieces in Tunisia", and that the unit had to be rebuilt completely in France, he does not mention ANY French tank. (Was he embarrassed?)

A quote from Feuchtinger's report:

ORIGINAL: "21st Panzer Division in Combat against American Troops in France and Germany", by E. Feuchtinger

"Our own construction staff had to assemble all armored and unarmored vehicles only from spare parts found in the salvage dumps of the campaign in the West in 1940. Only the tanks for the Panzer-Regiment were supplied. All weapons were allotted from German stocks, but we had to build the installations (self-propelled) and the towing mediums ourselves. Even after 6 June 1944 the division had no replacements for vehicles, but had to build up everything even in the most difficult situations. As the only division of the German Western Army the division had to go on fighting continuously at the most difficult points."

The part where he talks about the installations on/for "self-propelled" guns might refer to SPGs with Lorraine undercarriage. Still, why does he not mention the French tanks, even though they were listed and used at least until 1st of June?

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

"On 20 May 1944, Panzer-Regiment 100 of the 21st Panzer Division was ordered to reorganize to the "Frie Gliederung" and was renamed Panzer-Regiment 22 effective immediately . The I. Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 22 was to be outfitted with 17 Pzkpfw IVs in each of it’s four Panzer-Kompanien and the II. Abteilung still in possession of Beute-Panzers [captured tanks] was to be outfitted with 14 Pzkpfw IVs in each of its four Panzer-Kompanien", Pg 158, Thomas L. Jentz, Panzertruppen Volume 2, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, PA 1996

Well, "was to be outfitted". That does not necessarily mean that the IST outfit had matched the SOLL layout on 1st of June (and the following days). From what I've read so far, the last detailed/known exact IST report is from 1st of June, and that still listed the number of French tanks I mentioned above.

Jentz does a good job. But from another discussion here in this forum (which dealt with tank production in Czech, Böhmisch-Mährische Maschinenfabrik), I got the impression that Jentz has some tiny weak spots here and there, and that some of his (really short) summarizing statements, like the one you quoted above, leave room for interpretation.

"Furthermore, on 24 May, 14 Mark IVs were sent to the division".....from Zetterling.
This would indicate the French junk was in the process of being phased out and the Frie Gliederung being implemented....

Actually, this does not rule out that some of them could have been part of something what I'd call an early "ad-hoc reaction force", similar to the Chars committed during Market Garden, as there is no indication WHEN these additional PzIV had actually reached the unit, as these tanks would have showed in the IST report, otherwise. The sum of previous deliveries, excluding the scheduled 14 tanks, matched the total amount reported as IST on 1st of June.

Furthermore, the expected delivery was supposed to replace the remaining French tanks, but if you do some MATH, then you'll figure that, with additional 14 tanks, only ONE of the THREE companies (5th, 6th and 7th, II. Abteilung) still operating French tanks could have been converted during the first weeks of June. Afaik, except for the 14 tanks being discussed, the 21st Pz did not receive any additional tanks until 8th of July.

As a result, at least 2 of the 3 companies I mentioned would have had to operate the obsolete equipment, unless the 14 PzIV (whenever they arrived) were distributed among these companies evenly, to establish a somewhat better combat value across the II. Abteilung, at least, but then the particular Coys would have been understrength and would have had way less combat value (if they really phased out the French stuff). Was that the case? I don't know, I'm not sure whether documents at BA-MA would shed some light in there, as documents (past 1st of June) seem to missing.

On the other hand, I could imagine, that these 14 tanks were mainly used to replace losses in the other companies (1-4, of I. Abteilung), as these had been fully converted to the PzIV already, so they had received some training and gained experience on that type, and that one or another PzIV was then held back as training vehicle for the other companies, until the next delivery would kick in.

EDIT 2: According to many war diaries, tank companies that were rebuilt or that were in the process of conversion (to diff. tank models), used to receive one or another "sample" of the particular model for training purposes, before the entire company/Abteilung was equipped with tanks. So I wouldn't be surprised if they had kept the French tanks in the II. Abteilung to maintain a minimum combat value until sufficient numbers of PzIV had reached the frontline.

GoodGuy, the action you're describing sounds like Pegasus Bridge in the British Airborne sector, but I think you're confusing photographic evidence with the American paratroopers actions at La Fiere Bridge.

Actually I thought the picture was taken somewhere in Ranville, around 1 kilometer away from the bridge, but I'm not sure anymore whether the particular French tank was up against US AT guns or British ATs/PIATs, I just remember seeing an AT gun, a French tank and a StuG .. there were 2 or 3 pics, one showing the tank, then the photographer must have made a turn to the opposite direction to take a pic of the gun.

I'd agree that right at Pegasus bridge, people seem to keep confusing a burned out halftrack with French equipment.

There are no photos of knocked-out French beute tanks in the British sector....believe me, I've looked.

Well, the French tanks were listed on 1st of June. The Pz.Rgt. 100 (or 22 [;)]) was the only tank unit in the sector during the first vital days. There is no evidence that all of the few French tanks were already phased out by 6th of June, either, imho.
I've seen these pics roughly 2-4 years ago, in some forum where people asked to identify a tank/picture. It wasn't one of the usual forums packed with history buffs, but sadly I can't remember the URL. I bookmarked it back then, but I lost my bookmarks like a year ago when I switched to a new 'puter.

And a quote from the file I linked:

Who compiled that pdf you linked above?

ORIGINAL: tukker

Here's some more information on the OOB of Pz Regt 22 (Good Guy, it looks like the regiment was renamed in May 1944, contrary to what the Lexicon der Wehrmacht says)
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=995&highlight=panzerdivision

Well, his take is based on an internet site that doesn't exist anymore. In a reply, Jan-Hendrik, a really knowledgeable guy, states Zetterlinger's page as source, and this page here:

http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/21%20pz%20div.htm , partially based on research by Martin Block (who checked BA-MA material and who is being mentioned below the 1945 entries of the 21st PD), which doesn't list a Pz.Rgt.22 as part of 21st Pz.Div. BEFORE 1945, either, though.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: tukker
As soon as I got my hands on the Estabs Editor, I've started converting my old HTTR "Epsom" and "Epsom Phase 4" scenarios (does anyone remember them?) to BFTB.

Sure do ! - Looking forward to them.

I also started to investigate the estab editor a bit - got this thing stuck in my mind about upscaling the engine so the smallest unit is a division with army HQ units, then treat the map as a lower scale too and have 1 game-hour equal 1 day, essentially making a strategic level game

In your opinion : would this be feasible in the estab and the engine as a whole ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Arjuna]

You're incorrigible Eddy! [;)]

We would need to make mods to the engine to change the time interval and spatial grid sizes.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
You're incorrigible Eddy! [;)]

I found my BFTB mojo back [;)]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
We would need to make mods to the engine to change the time interval and spatial grid sizes.

The spatial grid size is just a convention - with appropriatly modified movement rates a square which is now 1 km squared could represent 10 km squared or more. A game hour could just as well represent a day. Ok, it might look a bit funny when night sets in, but if you get the movement rates versus the space covered correct for a higher scale, why wouldn't it work ?

Going to do some tests ... [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[wodin]

Not for me Eddy....really not interested in another division scale game...I love the company size units....if the series did change scale I would be out.

[mariandavid]

As far as I have been able to determine the only French AFV 'in action' as opposed to littering the rear area workships of the 22nd were the ver, very effective SP and SP artillery conversions of the Lorraine and other chassis. Note that a few H35 were used as command tanks of these batteries which is where the confusion may come from.

[OConnor]

Just wanted to send my props out - I loved those Epsom scenarios!! And I am really looking forward to seeing them updated to the new engine!! All the Best - OConnor

[tukker]

Thanks. I haven't been working on them for a while- too much soccer to watch. But once Holland have clinched the title, I'll be back in business [;)]

Pieter

[Rebel Yell]

Any progress on this tukker?