Cant use SPW-250/1 as APC (v2.3)

illo · Post by **illo** » Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:57 pm

It has carry capacity of 106 in OOBs
but can lift only 6 men in game.

It is not avail for german in battles
only way i can use it is in campaign
and without infantry in it

Editing oobs doesnt have any effect on it

...very strange.

i hope this will be corrected to 3.0
as SPW-250/1 is my fav PzGren vehicle

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Tue Aug 22, 2000 12:13 am

Illo, the 106 does not mean it can carry 106 men...

The 1 means it can carry small guns and the '06' part means it can carry 6 men also.

So you could use the 251/1 Ht's with carry capacity of 110, so 10 men...but I don't see why you couldn't change the carry capacity via oob.

And it seems to have the Radio code of 93, the latter 3 meaning 'formation only'. I thought this affects AI only but if you change this radio code to 90, for example, then it will be available for purchase.

The 2nd number in that radio code means 0=common, 1=bit rare, 2=very rare, 3=formation only. first number in possibility of a radio in 10%'s...didn't try it but if a 3 is not available for player then others should be...

Voriax

Hauptmann6 · Post by **Hauptmann6** » Tue Aug 22, 2000 1:14 am

Well, the reason is, that the 250 was much smaller than the 251, the 250 was used for recon work, like hauling around recon squads and such. It was not made to carry a real squad like the 251. So, you should use the 251 for the main infantry, and the 250s along with recon squads and armored cars for recon and scouting.

Haupt

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Aug 22, 2000 2:34 am

Originally posted by illo:
It has carry capacity of 106 in OOBs
but can lift only 6 men in game.

It is not avail for german in battles
only way i can use it is in campaign
and without infantry in it

Editing oobs doesnt have any effect on it
...very strange.

i hope this will be corrected to 3.0
as SPW-250/1 is my fav PzGren vehicle

Yes, as Hauptmann pointed out, is was designed to carry the 'halb-gruppe', or half squad as it were, about 4 guys could fit ok, so even the 6 is pushing it!!;-)

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

illo · Post by **illo** » Tue Aug 22, 2000 5:51 pm

McGib · Post by **McGib** » Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:04 pm

What I hate is a SPW 251 with a 37mm is one of the h/t in a infantry platoon. It cannot hold a hole squad. I think its about 42 that this happens. I know I can edit it out but it's still a pain

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McGib
Ready Aye Ready

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:33 pm

Originally posted by McGib:
What I hate is a SPW 251 with a 37mm is one of the h/t in a infantry platoon. It cannot hold a hole squad. I think its about 42 that this happens. I know I can edit it out but it's still a pain

Well, again this is a special vehicle, issued only to the platoon leader of the armored infantry. This was not able to hold a whole squad, after a 37mm cannon, with crew, ammo, and the platoon leader and staff crammed in!! I put the machinegun crew in here, which is pushing it!!

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:33 pm

Originally posted by McGib:
What I hate is a SPW 251 with a 37mm is one of the h/t in a infantry platoon. It cannot hold a hole squad. I think its about 42 that this happens. I know I can edit it out but it's still a pain

I've read on the WWW ('though I forget where), that the Germans gave the 251/37mm to platoon leaders to provide some more back up fire support. IRL the Platoon Leader, radio operator, sergeant, etc. could easily fit on board but in the game, the platoon 0 unit is a full squad, not a small command element. I suppose the accurate thing to do would be to edit the OOB to add a small 0 command element but that increases the number of units and complexity without adding much gaming benefit. Instead I edit the 251 to increase its load.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Wed Aug 23, 2000 1:22 am

Well, in this area you can be as flexible as you like, as more often than not platoons and squads did not have a full complement of personnel or even weapons.

According to the "handbook on German military Forces", for instance, a Panzer grenadier Zug in the Gepanzerte Panzer grenadier Abteilung of a Panzer grenadier Regiment consisted of 30 all ranks, with 1 officer, 3 NCos and 26 enlisted men.

These had to fit into 4 Motor vehicles (Presumably all SPWs). Their complement of Lmgs was 9 per platoon!!!

The handbook does not indicate how this was broken down into squads, but it's a safe bet to assume that it was either a case of 8x3+6 or 9x3+3, the smallest group being the HQ group.

The bigger mistery is the number of Mgs, but I assume that it counted one for each full squad to fight dismounted and two for each SPW carrying a full squad.

Note that the platoon's weapons are listed as 12 Rifles, 8 Smgs and 10 Pistols. Rifles and Smgs are enough to arm 20 men, leaving 9 men to man the Lmgs with pistols for side-arms and the officer, who would have carried a pistol.

So, would a properly armed Panzer grenadier squad fighting dismounted need to be represented by nine men with three Lmgs?
And in this case, should their SPW be disarmed?

Or should it be 6 men with 1 Lmg, and their Spw crewed by driver+2 men to man the Lmgs?

The HQ vehicle would not have had any Mgs, and the same would be true for the HQ group, but interestingly there is no mention of 37mm cannons (20mm AA guns, 81mm mortars Hmgs and 75mm SPIGs are mentioned as part of the Company's complement of heavy self propelled weapons).

In Herbert Fuerbringer's History of the 9th SS Hohenstaufen Panzer Division Armored platoon leader vehicles (SS PzGren Rgt. 20/III Abteilung) seem to be represented as armed with 20mm AA guns.

The Motorized Panzer grenadier Platoon has more men but less Lmgs. (43 men, 6Lmgs).

They were armed with 26 Rifles, 4 Smgs and 13 pistols. Again, there are enough Rifles and Smgs for 30 men, leaving 13 men armed with pistols of which one is the officer. Twelve men would man 6 Lmgs in pairs.

In the Armored platoon, assistant Light machine gunners carried rifles, but not it would appear in the motorized platoon.

In the field, I suspect that full squads were a rare sight, and that not many Armored Panzer grenadier platoons enjoyed the full complement of vehicles and weapons allocated to them.

So, you should feel free to play around.

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Fabs

[This message has been edited by Fabs (edited August 22, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Fabs (edited August 22, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Fabs (edited August 22, 2000).]

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Wed Aug 23, 2000 1:56 am

Originally posted by Fabs:
. . . These had to fit into 4 Motor vehicles (Presumably all SPWs). Their complement of Lmgs was 9 per platoon!!! . . .
The bigger mistery is the number of Mgs, but I assume that it counted one for each full squad to fight dismounted and two for each SPW carrying a full squad.

You are correct. The number of 'LMGs' listed for the panzergrenadier (gepanzart) platoon includes those mounted on the SPWs. The actual number of LMGs carried into battle is 1 per squad when fighting dismounted, as you guessed.

The Handbook is often vague and repetitive in many places (and incomplete in others). For instance, all of the tank-formation TO/Es in the Handbook list not only the number of AFVs in the formation but list again in a separate column the number of AT weapons mounted on those AFVs. Since the Handbook is a reprint of a wartime document, these sorts of "bugs" are to be expected and, considered as a whole, the Handbook is still an invaluable research aid. Just don't count on it to be the "final authority".

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Wed Aug 23, 2000 2:08 am

Originally posted by victorhauser:
You are correct. The number of 'LMGs' listed for the panzergrenadier (gepanzart) platoon includes those mounted on the SPWs. The actual number of LMGs carried into battle is 1 per squad when fighting dismounted, as you guessed.

The Handbook is often vague and repetitive in many places (and incomplete in others). For instance, all of the tank-formation TO/Es in the Handbook list not only the number of AFVs in the formation but list again in a separate column the number of AT weapons mounted on those AFVs. Since the Handbook is a reprint of a wartime document, these sorts of "bugs" are to be expected and, considered as a whole, the Handbook is still an invaluable research aid. Just don't count on it to be the "final authority".

Thank you for clearing up something that i have been wandering about for quite a while, Victor.

Do you think then that to represent a Gepanzert Panzer grenadier squad properly in the game there should be one SdKfz 251-1 with 2 Lmgs and 3 Crew carrying from 3 to six (depending on casualties/replacements) men in a squad armed with Rifles, Smgs and 1 Lmg?

And how would the even more peculiar numbers given for the Motorized panzer grenadier platoon have worked? Was the 2nd lmg mounted in the truck?

Would the grenadiers have taken it with them when fighting dismounted, since using the truck for support fire does not seem very practical?

I would really like to hear your opinion on this. As I will be away until September 1st, you can if you want E-mail it to me at
fabio@mantegazza.demon.co.uk

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Fabs