So how are the Russians now?

[ncc1701e]

Since the increase of the defense value of the Soviet units, I didn't see much comment about anything on the Russian front.
Does that mean everything is fine now?

[sveint]

I'll let you know in a month. Random opponents aren't playing with these scenarios (nor was I until recently).

[CHINCHIN]

I would say yes. In 1942, the Germans found themselves facing a wall of strong Russian units, which was very difficult to penetrate.

[aaminoff]

How are you able to get the new Soviet defense values in multiplayer? Having copied in the new files, when I create a game in the multiplayer lobby using the Europe 1939 scenario, I see the lower Soviet def values, whereas if I create a local game, the new def values appear.

[sveint]

How are you able to get the new Soviet defense values in multiplayer? Having copied in the new files, when I create a game in the multiplayer lobby using the Europe 1939 scenario, I see the lower Soviet def values, whereas if I create a local game, the new def values appear.

I'll play a game if you want. I have the new scenarios.

[ncc1701e]

How are you able to get the new Soviet defense values in multiplayer? Having copied in the new files, when I create a game in the multiplayer lobby using the Europe 1939 scenario, I see the lower Soviet def values, whereas if I create a local game, the new def values appear.

See here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p5163938

[stjeand]

Not found an opponent yet...will let you know if I do.

Been a while...rusty.

[sveint]

I'll play a game. Rusty too.

[stjeand]

Games up..pick one and off we go.


I was a big fan of the winter variant...guess we see.

The random cold turns in October / November to me are a game ender for Russia...BUT maybe it will be different this time.

[MattFL]

I have played 2 games to completion and am in late 1942 in a third game against the 5 DEF factor Russians. It definitely makes a difference. In the first 2 games, they were won not in Russia, but through other mechanisms and the fight in Russia was really hard due to not devoting enough troops there to the point that the Russians were launching decent counters in 1941 and 1942 that were concerning. In the third, i went for a Russia first German strategy and it's been a slugfest. Here are my thoughts:

The Russians are far stronger now and you can't really just slash through them like butter in the early war. German casualties are higher than previously. However, what is more dependent is the German players strategy and the Russian/Allied players strategy.

Russian
Yes, they are stronger, but there's no way they can defend the border. I think the Russian player should start their defense pretty well back so that the initial turns of the German invasion cost them nothing and they are using the best ground for the initial battles which won't really take place until T3 of the German invasion when German effectiveness is being drained by the constant advance while the Russian effectiveness is not. For the most part, the Russians shouldn't stand and fight against a determined German offensive for prolonged periods. In these fighting turns, the Germans are facing much higher combat power than when the DEF factor was 3, leading to much more of a grind on the German forces. The Russians can stand for a turn or 2 and then should bolt back to a new line. All Russia really needs to do is to survive long enough so that the Allies can start draining off German combat power with invasions that they will undoubtedly throw back, but do sap off strength from the Russian front in order to do so. So overall, it does make a difference and in the first couple of games i was a bit taken aback by what i was running into. It's more like fighting the British.

German
In my experience, there are about 3 different (4 if you count trying to invade England, which i have never tried) overall strategies the Germans can try. One of those, is to maximize the effort against Russia, as i am doing in my current game. Using this strategy, the Germans are still very strong by comparison against the Russians. But it doesn't matter if you fail to achieve encirclements. Yes, you may win many combats, but they are more grinding and achieving meaningful breakthoughs is much harder now. If the Russians are getting away, it's problematic as the armor forces effectiveness drains quite quickly and the first winter feels long. I tend to try to remove key German units during the winter and use them elsewhere. But overall, the new scenario with the increased DEF definitely makes a big difference in what you are up against in 1941/42 and i doubt i'll ever play the original scenario again as the new one makes for a better game.

Overall, i do still think the Germans have an advantage in the game, but that could just be opponent based and what various people do as there are so many options for both players in how they approach things. As the German, I have a few fixed things that i do as early as possible (Denmark, Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece all before invading France), but otherwise try to flow like water to take what is most weakly defended. Paramount to the Russian defense is the Western allies constantly hampering the Germans as much as possible to siphon troops out of Russia to deal with them. Without this, the Russians still can't really stand up to the Germans, but they definitely bleed them a lot more. But they don't have to, they just need to not make huge mistakes getting troops encircled. Really, falling back is generally the order of the day for the Russians, trading space for time and trying to keep your army intact as long as possible.

There are 6 objectives in Russia only. 3 that the Germans are sure to take in '41 regardless of DEF factor and 3 more that they may or may not take depending on so many other factors of the overall war. One example is that many folks think the Spanish Gambit of taking Spain, Portugal, and Gibraltar is a mistake due to having more to defend and a less powerful barbarossa initially. But there are 3 VLs there, so if you take them it's (as i understand all VL being equal value) its the same as taking Lenningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad, but just way easier and you can take them way earlier. Spain is low hanging fruit by comparison to the big 3 in Russia. So these types of decisions probably impact the war on the Russian front as much the DEF factors do, there are just too many moving parts and strategies. That being said, i do think it's an overall improvement having the Russian DEF at 5 than previously and gives a tighter game with greatly increased German losses. Is it realistic? Probably not, but in terms of Warplan the game, its a definite improvement and i find the game more balanced now than previously.

[boldairade]

Thanks for this write up

It’s good that you think the game is better this way

As a player who always felt Russia was pretty well modeled this honest write up worries me a bit.

The jump was from D3 to D5 right?

[stjeand]

Thanks for this write up

It’s good that you think the game is better this way

As a player who always felt Russia was pretty well modeled this honest write up worries me a bit.

The jump was from D3 to D5 right?

For Small Corps yes.

Armies I think went 4 to 5...but now I don't remember.

[sveint]

The Russians are far stronger now and you can't really just slash through them like butter in the early war. German casualties are higher than previously. However, what is more dependent is the German players strategy and the Russian/Allied players strategy.

This is perfect.

What you are saying is that the Axis player now has to employ some strategy and tactics, and can no longer just frontal charge on the entire front in 1941 like was the case previously.

[MattFL]

Thanks for this write up

It’s good that you think the game is better this way

As a player who always felt Russia was pretty well modeled this honest write up worries me a bit.

The jump was from D3 to D5 right?

You're welcome. Yes, it's for the initial corps and D3 to D5. Like i said, it almost makes it like fighting the early war british.....

[MattFL]

The Russians are far stronger now and you can't really just slash through them like butter in the early war. German casualties are higher than previously. However, what is more dependent is the German players strategy and the Russian/Allied players strategy.

This is perfect.

What you are saying is that the Axis player now has to employ some strategy and tactics, and can no longer just frontal charge on the entire front in 1941 like was the case previously.

For sure, you can't just run through them as before. But like I said, it's not such a drastic change that the Soviets can be careless. They should still fight a turn or 2 then fall back. Rinse and repeat. If they stay too long, they will get hammered/encircled. Just the Germans will bleed a lot more in the process.

[MattFL]

As a player who always felt Russia was pretty well modeled this honest write up worries me a bit.

Just to follow up with this one comment you made. I too actually felt the original Russians were well modelled. But my feedback in the context of Warplan the game, not WWII history. There are other factors at play on the Western Front that impact what happens on the Eastern Front. I mean, we see these invasions on the Western front in 1941 and 1942 for example. We also see the German super ability to shift troops all over the theaters very quickly and easily. So my comment is that the change makes for a better game of Warplan, not that it makes it more historical.

[boldairade]

Thanks for this write up

It’s good that you think the game is better this way

As a player who always felt Russia was pretty well modeled this honest write up worries me a bit.

The jump was from D3 to D5 right?

You're welcome. Yes, it's for the initial corps and D3 to D5. Like i said, it almost makes it like fighting the early war british.....

i wonder if bumping them to 4 not 5 would be adequet

really, the line you gave that worried me is 'it like fighting early war british'

it really shouldn't be

[sveint]

If you guys want to talk history, the Germans suffered about a million casualties in 1941. Far far FAR more than in WarPlan or any other game I've ever played. So in that respect the game is far easier than history.

[boldairade]

If you guys want to talk history, the Germans suffered about a million casualties in 1941. Far far FAR more than in WarPlan or any other game I've ever played. So in that respect the game is far easier than history.

Most figures put German TOTAL casualties during Barbarossa at 1 million

Of course the bulk of those came on the defensive post Citadel/stalingrad

Total Russian casualties about 4.5 times that and an awful lot of those coming in 41

So actually I’d say WP does a pretty fair job of being realistic

[boldairade]

If you guys want to talk history, the Germans suffered about a million casualties in 1941. Far far FAR more than in WarPlan or any other game I've ever played. So in that respect the game is far easier than history.

Most figures put German TOTAL casualties during Barbarossa 1941 at 1 million

Russia 4.5 times that

So actually I’d say WP does a pretty fair job of being realistic