Thanks MECHFO. But before looking at numbers things have to be clear on what's going on behind the scenes.
The Sheet
It's all tested in the Editor game V1.03.07 StB Scenario.
Unit MOR/EXP was 75 and everything else set to 100%. Usually used 500 Elements, occasionally 1000.
I mostly tested Attacks, some defenses gave same results (same consumed lb of Ammo per "Shot"), so I stuck to Attacks.
This testin series is not supposed to exclusively show weird things in HPE, but may give some hints to
issues similar to this Thread.
It started small and grew, I randomly picked elements which to test. Comprehensively one would go through all the 100'ish Ground Element Types and see what's their way of counting shells.
The greyed collumns are calculation results, white ones are inserted values form ingame UI/Editor.
Access to the Sheet.
- I take Artillery as the base, since that one makes sense, since one Shot = 1 Shell.
Therefore FPE, HPE and consumed Ammo are correct.
Since FPE and HPE are correct, the Hitratio can be calculated by using them and is therefore "correct" too.
Therefore Artillery will be the one "extreme" to compare against.
- Now let's take a look at the Infantry/Squad section.
That one should be alright using a whole Ammo Use when firing with their plenty of arms they have.
Opposed to Artillery, Infantry will be the other extreme, using a whole AU when firing.
- Now let's take a look at the Mortar section.
It is only consuming 80% of what Artillery would consume. I guess this is related to needing less proprellants, so overall this should be alright as it is done, someone put some mind into this and reduced it (compared to Artillery) by 20%.
BUT if you see the 50mm Mortar you see that this one is using the whole AU when doing 1 "Shot", so that Mortar suddenly is "Bursting".
- Now let's take a look at the 75mm leIG18 and the sIG33, those are Infantry Guns they suddenly use the whole AU per "Shot".
- Now let's take a look at the 75mm leFK18 and Katyushas those are "Light Artillery"/"SP Rocket Launcher" and works like Artillery.
- Now let's take a look at the purple coloured lines. Those are the "(armored) SP Rocket Launchers". This lines are besides the Sturmmörser (which has a RoF of 1 and makes sense) a complete abomonation, I have no idea how this numbers are being generated at all.
- They neither use Ammo at Arillery Rates.
- Nor do they use one AU per "Shot" like the red ones/Infantry.
- Additionally the consumed Ammo per shot varies.
At least here, the Devs (if not interested into looking at the other things) should have a look at what's going on and/or correct my results if my game goes crazy.
And if the Hit Ratio is intended to be so low for these Elements, it's okay, but then they should at least work like Heavy Artillery reducing Fortification levels (which at least I couldn't observe being the case).
- Now let's look at the rest.
Besides the Artillery, Ligth Artillery, Katyushas and Mortars, everything (what has been tested so far) is consuming a whole RoF per "Shot", so it "Bursts". Therefore...
- Hit Ratios are off from reality
- UI numbers don't make any sense
- Ammo consumed skyrockets
Concerning
ROCKETS. As I pointed out in
this Thread the Ground Type of "(armored) SP Rocket Launcher" uses a full AU (
and more) while "Unarmored SP Rocket Launcher" consumes Ammo at rates of Artillery.
- ammo_ratios.png (144.89 KiB) Viewed 767 times
Let's go through the calculations:
- I+J
- I: Simply compares Ammo (UStons) before and after combat.
- J: Compares consumed Ammo to listed "Shots" done in game. So it shows the lb consumed per "Shot". The Artillery with a RoF of 4 is using 1/4AU per "Shot" while a tank is using 1/1AU per "Shot".
- E+K
Now compare the observed behaviours of Ammo consumption with the FPE/HPE numbers, as can clearly be seen, it looks like the assets using the Artillery/Mortar way of shooting are having a way higher FPE on average.
This is caused by tracking each individual Shell, and is the most realistic one, the player gets the actual Hit-Ratio by comparing FPE and HPE, nothing confused and obscured. Things make sense.
But looking at the red lines, we see that the FPE are rock bottom.
This means we have two measures in how numbers are generated, presented in the same window in a comparative manner "sorting for FPE/HPE".
- L+M
- L: Hit Ratios shown ingame can be calculated by HPE/FPE, we get a Hit Ratio of 20% for Tanks, 75% for Flak and 5% for Artillery.
Just looking at those numbers, all makes somewhat sense, I won't state on if it actually are "realistic numbers" or not but generally we see that direct firing weapons have a higher accuracy and therefore a higher Hit Rate.
BUT....
- M: Since the red marked lines are actually shooting a full set of RoF, the Hit Ratios need to be modified, therefore suddenly the direct firing weapons end up at Flak 3.5% and Tanks 1.8% Hit Ratio, to name those two before mentioned ones. This makes them have less accuracy than any indirect firing Artillery.
(Note: for the yellow lines this collumn can be ignored)
- N+O+P
Simple listing of "Shots" shown in the UI, Hits (calculated using rounded decimals of HPE) and the actual shots fired when taking the consumed Ammo/freight into account which one "Shot" consumes.
Summarized:
Ofcourse compromises have to me made, but as stated, using (at least) two completely different ways to measure and present things confuses the whole meaning of the FPE/HPE window, which is essentially the only window giving us, ...should be giving us some sense of effectiveness of weapon systems. But this meaning of it is (imho) not achieved by the way as things are currently. This goes on top of the issue that HPE/FPE numbers are occasionally decimal-shifted (which may be caused by some of this?!).
And this loss of comparability is just one piece of the issue, as stated also Hit Rates become unhistoric to the point which currently has indirect firing Weapons having mroe ACC than direct firing weapons.
If this all is caused by the "need" to increase Ammo/freight consumption to meet historic numbers, here some notes on how things could be eventually be made different.
- If one wants to increase consumption during combat
- use not just the projectiles/shells but also the avarage propellants/casings/cartridge weights to calculate Ammo Use values (or just double those numbers currently used) [Division "Need" would need to be modified]
- use the same method like done for the Mortar but make it 150% or so for Tanks/Artillery/AT-Guns, to account for some wasted shots and other losses of Ammo
- use the same method like done for the Mortar but make it 250% to account for some wasted shots and other losses of Ammo (+50%) and the usage of propellants/cartridges (+100%)
- make ammo consumption related to EXP, 100EXP = 100% Ammo Used (like current Artillery), 50% EXP = 150% Ammo Used.
There is some statement in the manual concerning low EXP = consumes more Ammo (IIRC), I did not look into this yet.
- If one wants to reduce Ammo received, make freight in Depots destroyable or improve effects of Air Interdiction.
- If one wants to reduce Ammo in Units, increase Ammo consumption during Logistics "frontline attrition/training" phase.
Partially this may be the cause of Soviets not having any Supply issues, first Artillery shoots (cheap) and then the Stacking-penaltied units rush in, not doing any shots because of the stacking penaltie and therefore not consuming much ammo. And additionally the Soviet SP Rockets counting as/shooting like Artillery, while Germans SP Rockets which are doing things I can not explain (consume plenty, hitting non-ty).
Currently it seems like the combat system is two different games, would be awesome if one could eventually make it one.
Access to the Sheet.
Abbrevations and others:
AU = Ammo Use
ACC = Accuracy
FPE = Fired per Element
HPE = Hits per Element
"Shots" = numbers shown in game UI
Shots = projectiles/shells flying in the direction of the enemy
"Bursts" = using a full AU volume of freight to storm the enemy, guns blazing
)