New to the Game; a few First Impressions

[sIg3b]

Clean look, easy to use interface (less clunky than TotH). Mechanics seem to make sense.

Tutorials informative, but leave important items unexplained (Snipers, Indirect Fire,...).

Manual rather inaccurate, often mentions things that don´t even exist (2-story Buildings? Helicopters? Wtf? Did no one proofread this?)

SP scenarios seem all recommended only for one side, even-steven MP Scenarios are not recommended for SP; makes me think AI is rather weak.

A lot of rules to learn for a game without random Scenarios and/or expansions. What community mods are currently available? Are they good? Are they playable against AI?

[GiveWarAchance]

There are no helicopters in the game. I did see a helicopter in the movie "Where Eagles Dare" but I think it was just a new prototype.

Click on the mod subforum and get the mod there from asl3d. He did a nice campaign like Band of Brothers airborne in Normandy and just finished the cozy Stalingrad Barrikady scenarios. Make sure you download the mod core, scenarios and documents so you can read the info for each battle and there are nice pictures.

[asl3d]

ORIGINAL: sIg3b


Clean look, easy to use interface (less clunky than TotH). Mechanics seem to make sense.

Tutorials informative, but leave important items unexplained (Snipers, Indirect Fire,...).

Manual rather inaccurate, often mentions things that don´t even exist (2-story Buildings? Helicopters? Wtf? Did no one proofread this?)

SP scenarios seem all recommended only for one side, even-steven MP Scenarios are not recommended for SP; makes me think AI is rather weak.

A lot of rules to learn for a game without random Scenarios and/or expansions. What community mods are currently available? Are they good? Are they playable against AI?

Hello SIg3b, welcome to the forum.
Many questions and all very good.

Less clunky than TotH:

I agree with you, although TotH try to maintain the original Advanced Squad Leader system (do not know if you've ever played that famous boardgame?).

Informative tutorials:

Right. There are some gaps. However, if you know ASL it can be useful since many aspects are similar. In any case, the manual is not precise.
Specifying OBA indirect fire is much more simplified than in ASL, which I think is good. It is less real but makes every scenario where there is indirect OBA fire more playable. Another issue is the indirect fire on board. I do not like anything, although I can suffer it ....

Rather inaccurate manual:

Yes. Even in the Excel tables that control the game, there is a possibility that in a building there are stairs, as in ASL. I think the designers of the game wanted to include this important aspect but they ran out of gas .....
In Heroes and Leaders mod I have simulated the multi-storey buildings, defining them as if they were hills on which there is a building of 1 height level. It is a concept similar to that used in the first version of Squad Leader (not ASL), in whose multilevel buildings the units were supposed to be at all levels simultaneously.
It is a solution .....

AI is rather weak:

Yes, although in this forum there are friends who disagree.
This is the reason why in Heroes and Leaders mod I have had to balance the scenarios very much in favor of the AI. However, once a certain balance is achieved, the game is excellent.
Returning to TotH, there is no comparison. There are a variety of terrain elements that allow a number of tactical situations almost as rich as that offered by ASL. It can not be compared with TotH. This has been what has decided me to make Heroes and Leaders mod using this game. TotH is very far from HoS, and much more from H & L mod.

A lot of rules:

It is possible, but the game helps you. It even provides the probability of success for a particular attack. This property was the one that decided me to suppress all the information of the traditional counters, and then to suppress the own counter, camouflaging the units in the terrain .....

Expansions:

The original game only provides individual scenarios and a campaign game that can be played by the German side or the Russian side. All the action is located in Stalingrad.

Community mods:

Heroes and Leaders mod, is available (24 scenarios, at the moment).
There are scenarios published by Maitrebongo, Rico, and others. I like them all and you can play against AI.

[GiveWarAchance]

What is Toth? something about a tooth?

[dox44]

tt.asp?forumid=1566

[GiveWarAchance]

oh ya I remember that Tigers on the Hunt game. I almost bought it before but bought this game and a couple others instead.

[sIg3b]

Asl3d: Thank you. Appreciate much your very comprehensive & informative response!

TotH: I think it´s not a 1:1 conversion of SL or ASL. Too much simplified. Much got lost, like smoke.

Indirect Fire: The on-board 50mm seemed totally useless. When the Partisan Sharpshooter killed it, I thought: "Good riddance."

H&L Mod: Good to hear! Still sad that the game was abandoned before we got a Random Scenario Generator.

[asl3d]

ORIGINAL: sIg3b

Asl3d: Thank you. Appreciate much your very comprehensive & informative response!

TotH: I think it´s not a 1:1 conversion of SL or ASL. Too much simplified. Much got lost, like smoke.

Indirect Fire: The on-board 50mm seemed totally useless. When the Partisan Sharpshooter killed it, I thought: "Good riddance."

H&L Mod: Good to hear! Still sad that the game was abandoned before we got a Random Scenario Generator.

TotH is not an SL or ASL conversion.

I agree. I would say it is a 50% conversion. It's a Piter Fisla great effort but it only arrives halfway.
Even, I would still be happy if only the smoke was missing. For me, the main omission is the hexsides. SL or ASL without hexsides is not the same game. The walls, hedges, bocage, have a great impact on the SL and ASL scenarios. Not to mention the Bypass movement, which would be ask for too much.
In HoS the characteristics of the hexsides can be defined. Naturally, in H&L mod I used this possibility in the game. I have added the train tracks, the factory facades, and later I will include the concept of Rowhouse and Bunker. The hexsides are fundamental.
Another omission is the units embarked (Riders and/or Passangers). The next historical module Omaha would be incomplete if it could not recreate the US units onboard their landing craft, as well as their landing on the beaches .....

Indirect Fire:

This also occurs in SL and ASL. I've always had the idea that they were pretty harmless. In H&L mod I have respected the criteria of the original designers regarding the FP of each mortar, although it is possible to modify it. This is an aspect that can be reconsidered later, if we consider that it should be changed.

Random Scenario Generator:

It seems that the programmers have fled. Perhaps the budget for the development of the program was exhausted before perfecting the algorithms, and the company that supported the investments ended up losing the conviction in the product.
Well, apart from a plausible explanation, we are here to revive this great game. This is what matters.

[sIg3b]

TotH: Agree.
50mm: I think the problem is the Leader activation requirement. Leaders are just too valuable to be bothered. Let the on-board Mortars IF if *anyone* spots the target.
RSG: Agree.

[asl3d]

ORIGINAL: sIg3b

TotH: Agree.
50mm: I think the problem is the Leader activation requirement. Leaders are just too valuable to be bothered. Let the on-board Mortars IF if *anyone* spots the target.
RSG: Agree.

50 mm:

Totally agree. Maybe we could free the "so valuable leaders" with observers units or something similar to do the dirty work. I will think about it. Maybe something can be done (but I do not promise anything).

[asl3d]

Spotters:

Continuing with the option of introducing some type of unit that performs the specific function of an indirect artillery observer on game board, I have read again the official rules and have seen that scouts can also act as indirect fire instructors on game board.

However, this has some inconvenience. First, that the scouts usually act when one side is on the offensive, to discover the enemy units. In SL these units also existed and, finally, in ASL, they were suppressed. This function was also done perfectly by the HS. I have not seen using scouts in a defensive position, if only to be observers. The second inconvenience is that explorers are also valuable units, not as much as leaders, but also valuable.

I thought that a new type of unit could be introduced, the Spotters, whose function is also contemplated in ASL, although it is not assigned to a specific unit. Here if it could be done.

A Spotter is a group of soldiers, the size of a small team that would have some of the qualities of the scouts, specifically that of making observers for the indirect artillery on game board.

I will try to define some German Spotters to test their performance in Omaha scenarios.

I attach a first idea about it.

[asl3d]

Spotters:

I have doubts about how to represent spotters in silhouette format.

In the attached image there are several prototypes.

One solution is to continue using the format that I have used so far with all infantry units.

Another solution is to use a overhead vision, which coincides with the rest of the counters (teams and vehicles).

The third solution is to use a overhead vision profiled to better highlight the Spotters.

I attach a first idea about it.

[sIg3b]

ORIGINAL: asl3d

Spotters:

Continuing with the option of introducing some type of unit that performs the specific function of an indirect artillery observer on game board, I have read again the official rules and have seen that scouts can also act as indirect fire instructors on game board.

However, this has some inconvenience. First, that the scouts usually act when one side is on the offensive, to discover the enemy units. In SL these units also existed and, finally, in ASL, they were suppressed. This function was also done perfectly by the HS. I have not seen using scouts in a defensive position, if only to be observers. The second inconvenience is that explorers are also valuable units, not as much as leaders, but also valuable.

I thought that a new type of unit could be introduced, the Spotters, whose function is also contemplated in ASL, although it is not assigned to a specific unit. Here if it could be done.

A Spotter is a group of soldiers, the size of a small team that would have some of the qualities of the scouts, specifically that of making observers for the indirect artillery on game board.

I will try to define some German Spotters to test their performance in Omaha scenarios.

I attach a first idea about it.

I love the counter on the left. Looks great!

[asl3d]

OK SIg3b.

I will include, on the beaches of Omaha, German spotters to direct the indirect fire of their artillery on boards.

[sIg3b]

[8D]

[asl3d]

Hello SIg3b,

Spotters, US and Germans, are already availables in the Historical Module Omaha.

[sIg3b]

Sorry for coming back to you so late. Just in case it´s somewhere in the mod: The German term for spotter/fire support coordinator was "Artilleriebeobachter" (just one word, but you will most likely not find it in the dictionary, because it´s such a rare technical expression).

[asl3d]

Hello sIg3b,

It's never too late to participate in Heroes and Leaders mod.
Thank you very much for your contribution and I will include it in the Core. Just very shortly there will be a new update with many modifications and corrections. I will include it there.

[sIg3b]

Hello sIg3b,

It's never too late to participate in Heroes and Leaders mod.
Thank you very much for your contribution and I will include it in the Core. Just very shortly there will be a new update with many modifications and corrections. I will include it there.

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